Strange chemical reaction??

JTT · May 27, 2003

I had a very odd experience this past weekend, that I hope someone around here might be able to explain for me.

I was at a trial (not that that matters) and it was raining considerably all day. Rode most of the day without any problems. Towards the end the bike suddenly stalled out at idle. When I went to restart it, it would only start on the choke, and would run definitely lean when the choke was off. I figured I sucked some dirt into the pilot and thought little more or it.

When I got home and took the carb off to clean it, I noticed an odd, almost pudding like material on the carb slide. It was fairly thick (about like pudding) and a light tan colour (uuummm, butterscotch ;) ). It was slightly tacky to the touch. When I blew the jets out with air, a "slug" of this same material shot out of the pilot. There was little evidence of the material in the float area.

Now, riding conditions were very wet, although almost no mud. I was running a 110 octane race fuel, called ProRace Fuels, with Motul 600 2T. The fuel is orange in colour.

I have never seem a residue like this before...any ideas? :think:

MONKEYMOUSE · May 27, 2003

If your bike sat for a long period of time with gas in the bike it will become gummed up like that. If thats not what caused it I have no idea.

keith500r · May 27, 2003

the stuff you are describing kinda sounds like what you get when water and oil mix, but I dont know how that would have happened in the carb.

JTT · May 27, 2003

Thanks, but no, the fuel was fresh and the residue was totally different from old gas.

JTT · May 27, 2003

Keith, actually it was very similar to that mixture, only perhaps slightly more tacky. If it had been in a container on the bench, that's exactly what I would have thought it was.

Now getting water in the carb is not out of the question...but simply mixing water and the oil/fuel mixture doesn't make the end product...I actually did a little experiment with the fuel and some water in a small container. In a gearbox the mixture gets well "stirred" to form that "milkshake" product, but in the carb?

motometal · May 27, 2003

lots of humidity in the air, and slide is moving up and down, mixing it with the premix residue.  Tough to explain how it would get in the pilot jet, though.  Especially since you didn't see any in th float bowl.

 

490Dave · May 28, 2003

Engine vibration, rough trails might be enough to create an emulsion in the bowl of your carb. I'm willing to bet theres something in your premix oil that emulsifies with water quite easily. Correct me if im wrong here, but i think some brands add stuff like vegetable oils, coconut, mineral oil, peanut etc.

Hope this helps,

Dave.......

jmics19067 · May 28, 2003

or alchohol

Imho · May 28, 2003

My guess: Air filter oil mixed with humid air and/or water and drawn through carby.

JTT · May 29, 2003

I do think it definitely had to do with water and perhaps water drawn through the air filter....I did use NoToil filter oil :think:

I tried to create the same mixture (without considering the filter oil) in a small cup on the bench, but the fuel and water cleanly separated in to layers that I could not get to emulisfy by simple stiffing and shaking. My little "test sample" has since almost entirely evaporated off, leaving only slightly oily water in the cup (all signs of fuel appear to be gone).

Thanks for the help guys :thumb: Guess I'll have to see if it happens again (and take some pictures). Just thought maybe someone else has come across something similar in their experience. I know in 25+ yrs, I've never seen anything like it in a carb.

DEANSFASTWAY · Jun 1, 2003

Its from riding in the rain. Has anyone ever seen ELF and Klotz gel up in the cold cold wintertime it turns into a greasy sticky substance .

DEANSFASTWAY · Jun 1, 2003

Sometimes i get that kind of stuff in my powerwashers carb fom washing the bikes real close to the powerwasher.Starts running all herky jerky until I crack open the float bowl drain and let the water pass. If you drive an older gas vehicle you might see that stuff in the PCV valve or system espescially in the rainy season or winter. Think maybe the water vapor in the air stuck to the slide and reacted with the oil or fuel and then when you shut it off it dripped down through the needle and main jet ??Looked like butterscotch pudding eh?

JTT · Jun 1, 2003

Thanks for the input Dean. More and more I think it is related to the air filter, as Imho suggested. This would help explain why there was nothing in the float bowl but plugged the pilot. The pilot on this particular carb is an "emulsion" style jet (long straw with holes in side). Air from the airbox would be flowing across the slide and also this jet, but not into the float bowl.

Also I ran a similar setup last year, same oil, same fuel, without problems. The only variable I can think of that has changed is the air filter oil and rim grease.

..update...happened again today. No noticable "pudding" on the slide this time, but the pilot was clogged solid again. It was totally dry today :think:

70 marlin · Jun 6, 2003

Just try washing no toil with plain water. I love the stuff! but it will turn too goo with plain water, and nothing cuts it except the no toil cleaner.

Robcolo · Jun 6, 2003

This is the reason many engine builders recommend NOT running synthetic lube [mistakenly called oils] unless you're racing and tear down the engine frequently. Ester based lubes are hydrophyllic [water loving] whereas mineral oils are hydrophobic [water hating]. Brake fluids [except the silicones] are also ester based and must be changed frequently because of water absorption.You most likely have some of that same water containing goo in your main & rod bearings just waiting to attack [rust] the precision ground crank pin. Formation in the carb has to do with the dew point. The air was saturated with water vapor. Air going thru a carb drops in temperature many degrees causing the excess moisture to condense back to liquid water. Any carb flowing premix usually has some of the oil also condensed around the slide, choke & primary circuit inlets. The up & down movement probably mixed the water & "oil" into that goo. When I run a synthetic lube, I mix it 50:50 with a mineral oil.

70 marlin · Jun 6, 2003

Robcolo, will Yamma lube 2R have this same effect it's a semi snythetic premix oil?

JTT · Jun 6, 2003

I wasn't aware of that Robcolo. Thanks for the tip. :thumb:

I have tried changing the filter oil and rim grease and will see what happens this weekend. At least that's one variable eliminated.

Funny though, I ran Motul synthetics oil in JetSkis back a few years back and never had any issues what so ever...and in freestyle competition, there was lots of water injested :eek:

Buzz Bomb · Jun 19, 2003

Try a petroleum filter oil like Bel-Ray. Its been proven super effective, and you can rule out whether it's the air filter that's letting water in.

JTT · Jun 19, 2003

Well, several substantial rides later and no more problems. Guess it was the NoToil, or at least the NoToil grease. I did manage to create a mixture similar to what I found mixing gas and the NoToil grease. Back to solvent based filter oils and problem appears to be gone as quick as it appeared, Thanks for the input everyone! :thumb:

Jeff Howe · Jun 20, 2003

Had you ever run petroleum filter oil on that same filter prior to using the No -Toil? If so, thats your problem. I've seen lots of guys start bagging on No-Toil because of this same thing. Use a new filter with the No-Toil and you'll have no problems with it. Twin Air now has a biodegradeable filter oil and cleaner too. I'm never going back to petroleum filter oil.

Jaybird · Jun 20, 2003

I'm with you, nut!

I have had this same sort of thing. My slide was covered in a thick emulsion looking goo. I attributed it to ecessive filter oil. The goo was a lighter shade of the blue Spectro crap I was using on the filter, and I hadn't let the filter drain sufficiently after oiling, as there was some oil in the bottom of my airbox at the same time I discovered the goo in the carb.
I really think this problem is due to excess filter oil of ANY sort. Also helps to blow your jetting out of kelter too.

JTT · Jun 20, 2003

Originally posted by Shocknut
Had you ever run petroleum filter oil on that same filter prior to using the No -Toil? If so, thats your problem. I've seen lots of guys start bagging on No-Toil because of this same thing. Use a new filter with the No-Toil and you'll have no problems with it. Twin Air now has a biodegradeable filter oil and cleaner too. I'm never going back to petroleum filter oil.

Actually, yes I did. So what is the problem attributed too, residue of the petrol based product? I wash my filters in kerosine, then twice in hot soapy water and hang to dry, but I suppose there could be some residue left :think:

I'm definitely not bagging on the stuff, hope it didn't sound that way. I have used it with great success for three years in my CR250. Besides, I think it was the grease, not the actual filter oil that was causing the problem.

Jay, no worries, as I am carefull when oiling my filters and blot them dry after with paper towel just to be sure. Never had any in the bottom of my airbox on any of my bikes, including this one. Dust is rarely a problem in these parts, so I usually err on the side of less oil, rather than more ;)

Jeff Howe · Jun 20, 2003

I honestly can't back this with known fact (other then personal contacts), it is what I was told when I first started asking about using No-Toil. I talked with some guy that used to sell it and he gave me a advice on a couple things to avoid. One was don't use it on a filter I had used petroleum on previously. The other was don't use it on Uni Filters at all. So, I bought 4 No Toil filters for my bike along with the 1/2 gallon of oil and cleaner. One guy I know personally had this same exact problem you did and blamed the No Toil oil. He in turn introduced me to another buddy of his that had the same problem. They had both used it on filters where petroleum oil was used before. Since then (that was like 2 yrs ago) I have talked with others that said they had the same problem. I have passed on this advice to all I have met with this problem but most are not conviced for some reason.

So, I don't know exactly what causes it but I was told not to do it. I wonder if it says anything on the bottle about it?? If not they should make it known IMO.

Jeff Howe · Jun 20, 2003

JTT,

you didn't come off as knocking it. I was just more/less implying about those that I have heard rag on it. It doesn't matter to me what others choose to run on their filter. I get nothing for plugging the product, I just think it's awesome stuff. Cleaning filters in the sink and throwing them in the dryer with a load of clothes just blows my mind. I love the stuff. I just thought I'd pass on the info so you could continue to do the same if you wanted to. I just got done cleaning 3 filters 30 minutes ago and my riding clothes are going in the drier with the filters NOW!

jmics19067 · Jun 20, 2003

. The other was don't use it on Uni Filters at all.

unfortunately I can tell you that part is true frommy experience. if you are going to go to the no toil system buy the complete system with the filter and smile :) if you cant remember what kind of filter you have

I tried No Toil on the Uni's and every one I tried the glue separated at the seams. At first I thought it was too hot of water in the washing machine but it did the same thing even in the cold delicate cycle. It did not do this to the stock filter though.

Strange chemical reaction??

JTT

MONKEYMOUSE

keith500r

JTT

JTT

motometal

490Dave

jmics19067

Imho

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JTT

DEANSFASTWAY

DEANSFASTWAY

JTT

70 marlin

Robcolo

70 marlin

JTT

Buzz Bomb

JTT

Jeff Howe

Jaybird

Apprentice Goon

JTT

Jeff Howe

Jeff Howe

jmics19067

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