Nestrick

Mi. Trail Riders
Member
Aug 6, 2003
215
0
Hey Folks

This is perhaps a rambling effort to consolidate my understandings and present some potentially interesting thoughts to those of you also interested in the future of ORVing as we know it. I am not trying to start any feuds, but if you read this short dissertation and have some thoughts, I would be interested in reading them.

Being a relatively new dirt bike rider [old guy – third season], a long term full-sized vehicle 4WD fanatic, and one who has only ridden ATVs but a few times, reading the recently posted themes posed by different wheeled variants of our ORV community on DRN-MTR has captured my attention. Despite the combined efforts of many of our more conservative fellow bikers, the recent posts by several activist ATVers appear to me to be emulating an ominous [personal opinion] trend of politics in this country. Namely, we are more and more becoming a polarized nation wherein the democratic principle of majority rule is failing to produce the desired effect ... e.g.; we discuss an issue, present different sides, actively promote our positions, then vote on the possibilities and finally, having counted the votes, everyone accepts the majority position and moves on with their business. The principle of "majority rule" seems to apply admirably when the voting population lopsidedly favors one side or the other. However, when the voters take opposite sides of an issue in nearly equal numbers, the concept of “majority” becomes one of a simple numerical difference defined by only a small number of actual votes. Under such circumstances neither side feels that they are in the minority ... both sides feel they should have their way ... neither side wants to concede their position ... and both sides begin looking for ways to default the elective process. We have seen this in the last two Presidential elections, the current gubernatorial election in Washington State and many other current interest issues of our time. Barring the inability to find means to invalidate the elective process, the losers of such close elections never really concede their positions … they instead take activist positions and continually rain criticisms on the “winning side” in an effort to offset the opinions of a small portion of the electorate so as to make the next election come into their favor, even if by only a small margin. Such a victory leads inevitably to a repeat of the scenario with the winners and losers simply changing sides. Under these conditions, fact is often less important than ‘volume,’ and indeed, the actual issues may take a back seat in any discussion or debate of the proposition at hand. While those who are informed on a given issue may be villainized … the ignorant may become heroes when they regurgitate what the ‘crowd mentality’ wants to hear … certainly not the best of circumstances for arriving at a consensus opinion.

The above described situation may be well on the way to becoming a behavioral norm in our Country? As the number of issues upon which our fellow countrymen become ‘polarized' increases, the lower the level our societal regards for each other seem to achieve. In fact, it seems more evident that this same phenomenon is becoming the behavioral norm for situations which are far from near-equal numbers on each side of an issue. How often of late have you witnessed this scenario: “elections be damned … my side is right … I refuse to cooperate … I will not negotiate or debate … I will overcome … or else!”

One might ask what has happened to courtesy. I believe it was much stronger in generations past than now … however, it is not just the concept of courtesy that was different, but more importantly, its routine application in public situations. We seem to have lost ground in many important social morays when it comes to interpersonal relationships … especially involving folks who are on the opposing side of “our” issue.

While I respect the needs of every ORV enthusiast and encourage one and all to get out and participate [legally] on our wonderful Michigan Trail System ... I believe I am beginning to see the writing on the wall regarding future implementation of the system. The postings of late seem to be: ‘but the clouds on the horizon of an impending storm’ [my opinion]. The public realm is undergoing a rapid influx of new “participants” as the baby boomers begin to retire. These folks are eager to do all those things they were not able to do while they were working … many are impatient … many have considerable ‘expendable’ funds to support their newly adopted hobbies … they are taking notice of the Michigan Trail System … they may have little or no regard for the System’s history, growth, ideals or current directions … they are accustomed to “paying” their way and getting what they want based upon their numerical superiority. They represent a formidable foe. Unfortunately, a vast majority of these folks will likely not adopt our beloved sport of two wheeled dirt biking.

While the Michigan Trail System has a long and illustrious history evolved mainly through the interest, sweat, tears and loving attention provided by generations of dedicated motorcyclists … its future may well rest in the hands of a majority whose opinions are far from the likes of us who desire the “single track” format. While we tend to resist this concept based upon a lack of visible evidence to the contrary, I offer below the pictured “ORV” scanned from the February 2005 issue of Dirt Wheels magazine. This vehicle is a Rhino; it is basically configured to be a miniature 4WD vehicle that operates exactly like a Jeep for all intents and purposes. It comes equipped with all the accoutrements of a motor vehicle designed for the road, to include such items as lighting, stereo with multi-speakers, seat belts … and is operated with the same set of controls as is any automobile [i.e.; seat, steering wheel, accelerator pedal, brake pedal, emergency brake, transfer case shifter]. In effect, a Rhino permits essentially anyone capable of operating an automobile an immediate route into the wilds of Michigan provided the trail system will permit [admit] its girth … and that is the “Good News”!

The “Bad News” is that the Rhino is but one of perhaps five or six such inventions of the past few years being presented to the riding public. Each of these vehicles are iterations of the same design concept … and to make matters worse, according to the ATV oriented publications that I read, their sales are beginning to rapidly climb in proportion to all other forms of 2, 4 and 6-wheeled ORVs.

It does seem but only a matter of time these, and other ‘larger-scale’ ORVs, will be seeking greater access to the Michigan Trail System. In that respect, we 2-wheeled advocates must take seriously our positions with regard to integration of the necessary trail types needed to support a changing distribution of ORV enthusiasts for it is not the past which will define us, but the future!

Respectfully submitted for your criticism, terry nestrick :ugg:
 

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Magoo

~SPONSOR~
Aug 12, 1999
354
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Good post, Terry.
Unfortunately, I am suffering the same disillusionment regarding our society's ability (or desire) to discuss ideas rationally and courteously -- let alone reach any sort of position where everyone can work together for "the greater good." The last Presidential election elicited responses (from people I consider to be quite intellegent, although not happy about who "won") such as "I fear for the future of our Nation," and "I am ashamed to be an American." I am apalled at these attitudes.
As well, I've been somewhat active in attempting to preserve, promote and expand the MI ORV Trail System. I understand that there are many new kinds of ORVs and new types of ORV users than originally contemplated when the system was designed. The current challenge is: given a finite (actually, shrinking) land resource, how do we accomodate the growing variety of ORV users? True, all ORV users should have equal access, but each has a unique agenda. And, unfortunately, the general public just groups us all together as "off-roaders" who just tear around in the mud.
Each ORV user group thinks their ideas are "the best." However, each group promotes ideas that prioritize their own unique interests, and pay lip service to other groups' desires (according to the other groups). We're all shouting, no ones listening. Witness the ridiculous threads that have been posted here lately.... it's gotten so that I'm losing interest in this forum because of all the "he said, she said" crap going on. While the finger pointing goes on, nothing gets done and we look more like idiots because we don't know how to play nice with each other.
Until we can learn to understand each others desires, can come to grips with the fact that we need to accept and even support different ideas, and can find ways to accomodate and coordinate those varied wishes, I'm afraid the DNR (read: general public/government) will dictate to us ALL what will be best for us.
Magoo
 

KTM Mike

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Mi. Trail Riders
Apr 9, 2001
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Magoo said what REALLY is the Bottom Line!

Magoo said:
Until we can learn to understand each others desires, can come to grips with the fact that we need to accept and even support different ideas, and can find ways to accomodate and coordinate those varied wishes, I'm afraid the DNR (read: general public/government) will dictate to us ALL what will be best for us.
Magoo

It doesnt have to be win/loose - it can be win/win! What you said Magoo is really what it will have to come down to.
 

FLEM

Member
Sep 22, 2004
70
0
thats the problem, NIH (not invented here) syndrome. the Parrallel trial system that has been put forth many times. is the simplest and most elegant solution. single track, ORV trail, ORV route all run the same general loop layout. coming together and sharing the major road crossing and loop intersactions, to simplify application and reduce cost/complexity. It offers all ORV participants(except full-size 4wd) (another issue). to access all the loops in the Michigan ORV system. the Parallell sytem works both ways. the cycle only trails would gain an ORV(trails/routes). and the ORV (trails/loops) would have singletrack shadow its course.
everybody gets what they want,,, more opportunity to pursue the type of ORV recreation they choose.

(the Full-size 4wd issue), the access and choice of off-road venues for truck/jeep recreation is extremely limited in michigan, I see this as a separate issue, and wholeheartely support it. large #'s of michigan residents currently go to other states to pursue challenging off-road venues. I believe a trail system should be created , solely for this pursuit,(correct me if I'm wrong but Off-Roading in its purest sense involves steep inclines,rapid changes in terrain, rocks, and occasionally mud. 2 of these four are not readily available in the LP. there are however, numerous(gravel pits) located all over the state thate would make Ideal large 4wd use areas. the UP however does offer all the ingredients for the creation of a 4WD trail system and this needs to be pursued. but the 4wd-ORV uses while similar, require different layouts due to terrain choice and scale of the full-size 4WD's
 

70 marlin

Mi. Trail Riders
LIFETIME SPONSOR
Aug 15, 2000
2,963
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It took a long time for the trail systems evolve, to this level and a lot of hard work by dedicated off-roaders! Maybe our rhino friends should put a little more sweat equity into to the trail system before we hand them the deed!
 

UP Magoo

Member
Apr 4, 2002
565
0
70 marlin said:
It took a long time for the trail systems evolve, to this level and a lot of hard work by dedicated off-roaders! Maybe our rhino friends should put a little more sweat equity into to the trail system before we hand them the deed!
 

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MidlandMoto

Member
Nov 4, 2004
33
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Terry that was a very well thought out articulate post. We have become polarized as a nation; everyone wants to point the finger at everyone else. The motorcycle community did build this great trail system, now though the ATV people are here and they will be here to stay.

What we need is a shadow trail for the motorcyclist (which has been stated many times) there is a BIG safety issue going on here that needs to be addressed. Those Rhinos scare the heck out of me. That is the kind of vehicle that will kill you or make you lose a limb if you hit one coming over a hill blind turn etc. At least with the regular ole ATV's you have a good chance of flying over it, those Rhino's though are going to bring the peeps out in mass and if we do not get really active and do something to have a separate trail for us two wheeled enthusiast, bikers are going to start getting hurt and killed!

So where do we go from here? Everyone should have equal access, but there is a reason you don't have large slower moving objects on the same track or trail as the faster smaller vehicles. My big fear has always been hitting an ATV.

Just some ramblings, Brian
 
Dec 19, 2004
41
0
FLEM said:
thats the problem, NIH (not invented here) syndrome. the Parrallel trial system that has been put forth many times. is the simplest and most elegant solution. single track, ORV trail, ORV route all run the same general loop layout. coming together and sharing the major road crossing and loop intersactions, to simplify application and reduce cost/complexity. It offers all ORV participants(except full-size 4wd) (another issue). to access all the loops in the Michigan ORV system. the Parallell sytem works both ways. the cycle only trails would gain an ORV(trails/routes). and the ORV (trails/loops) would have singletrack shadow its course.
everybody gets what they want,,, more opportunity to pursue the type of ORV recreation they choose.

(the Full-size 4wd issue), the access and choice of off-road venues for truck/jeep recreation is extremely limited in michigan, I see this as a separate issue, and wholeheartely support it. large #'s of michigan residents currently go to other states to pursue challenging off-road venues. I believe a trail system should be created , solely for this pursuit,(correct me if I'm wrong but Off-Roading in its purest sense involves steep inclines,rapid changes in terrain, rocks, and occasionally mud. 2 of these four are not readily available in the LP. there are however, numerous(gravel pits) located all over the state thate would make Ideal large 4wd use areas. the UP however does offer all the ingredients for the creation of a 4WD trail system and this needs to be pursued. but the 4wd-ORV uses while similar, require different layouts due to terrain choice and scale of the full-size 4WD's

If it takes somebody from the motorcycling community to finally suggest what I have been jumping up/down about for 5 years and being called every name in the book over...so be it.

The problem is this...your leadership WOULD BE THROWN OUT ON HIS ASS...the very second he "dared" propose such a solution to the "old school" riders in your group. These are the guys who not only believe "God himself" has decreed that the motorcyclist will ALWAYS ride exclusive areas ALONE.....but who pay your man's bills every month.
They'd run him out of town on a rail and the younger crowd within your group wouldn't say a word.

As always, follow the money and those not all that hip on losing theirs(?)....9 times out of 10.... you'll find those holding the keys to cooperation and progress barring the door closed with everything they've got.

Fantastic post, FLEM......my feelings exactly. It's just to bad that nobody besides myself has ever had the kahunas to bring your suggestion any further than the keyboard....and probably never will (why would anybody put up with being treated as I have... for what YOU can say above.... just because you're "a motorcyclist"???).
Bring this up at your next motorcycle meeting and ask them how many multi-use trails your leadership is projecting the state will need in 2015 and how much easier this system would be to maintain if they functioned side-by-side (or how it would FORCE these groups to work together and shut these arrogant/selfish old-timers up for good).
 
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Dec 19, 2004
41
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The other issue our four-wheeled community has to be leary of in any kind of proposed partnership here....is the fact that the two-wheeled community is already gearing up to shut down trail mileage for "study" on the pretense that we have RAPED the land! No acknowledgemnt whatsoever that the proper amount of money or modern trail maintnenace equipmeny has never even TOUCHED this real estate....just an insistence that these pieces of ground are "beyond repair" ***DUE TO THE INFLUX OF ATVS*** AND NOTHING ELSE!!! (and should be shut down so that MORE ground can be rendered the same!....by gosh, how much more easy pickins' could an environmentalist ever have simply fall in his lap to shout about!).

How do we even trust people who are out there right this very minute trying to paint our existence as irrevocably damaging to the environment....while at the same time (you darn well know) they are doing parallel studies of their own trails which will obviously show a much faster recovery rate!

News Flash!
ANY trail will degrade over time if not properly maintained and funded....and I don't mean with machetes and chainsaws!!!

Furthermore....how do you TRUST a group of people who just recently tried to convince the state that we ALL :| needed 100 more miles of single track only? These people are suddenly going to turn "strictly multi-use....for the good of our sport and the future"....on a dime?.

Do you make these guys apoligize for this action and promise that it will never happen again.....or do you let them work beside you while possibly allowing them to only give "lip service" to the concept of multi-use trails....while at the same time using these trail studies against you and going behind your back every chance they get to obtain more mileage that would be EXCLUSIVELY theirs?

Again....where does the "trust" begin? Heck, I haven't even met anybody man enough to shake your hand and discuss any of this; short of some guy who (after his obligatory "Joe Blow AMA District whatever" greeting) once told me how the motorcyclists were hot after even the "non-motorized trails" and that then.... they'd "ride them all"....boy was "I" impressed :ugg: (one wonders if they'll use these "trail studies" they want funded to further differentiate "us v.s. them" in even the non-motorized community at our expense).

As I said at the last orv update meeting....simply tell us what you are TRULY all about and just what you EXPECT from being part of a sport in serious decline. We are offering you MORE trails with MORE help and friendship to boot. If having "exclusive" trails ALSO is what your group wants to live and die over...maybe that is exactly how history (and your grandchildren) will eventually judge you in the end.
 
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woodsy

~SPONSOR~
Mi. Trail Riders
Jan 16, 2002
2,933
1
Very well said Terry!!!! :cool:
THANK YOU for taking the time to write out a very detailed account of reality!!
As previously stated, that Manistee Loop has all the answers we are looking for - Parallel Trails with room for the variety of equipment that is part of our modern day world!!!!! Maybe if the owners of this "new age" stuff would create/support and politisize a Rino riding organization the CCC (Cycle Conservation Club), the Snowmobiler Clubs, the Horse Riders Clubs (dont know how to spell Esquarioin) could join hands and get the job done!!!!! :aj:
By the way Terry - THANKS FOR THE "OTHER" READ BROTHER!! Way cool idea!!!!!!!! :yeehaw:
Woodsy
 

MWEISSEN

Whaasssup?
Mi. Trail Riders
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Dec 6, 1999
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Today, 09:55 AM
This message is hidden because The Bottom Line is on your ignore list.

View Post Today, 10:17 AM
This message is hidden because The Bottom Line is on your ignore list.

View Post Today, 11:01 AM
This message is hidden because The Bottom Line is on your ignore list.

Hmmm, did anyone hear anything? :moon:
 

woodsy

~SPONSOR~
Mi. Trail Riders
Jan 16, 2002
2,933
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MWEISSEN said:
Today, 09:55 AM
This message is hidden because The Bottom Line is on your ignore list.

View Post Today, 10:17 AM
This message is hidden because The Bottom Line is on your ignore list.

View Post Today, 11:01 AM
This message is hidden because The Bottom Line is on your ignore list.

Hmmm, did anyone hear anything? :moon:

You rascal Mark :laugh:
Did you happen to notice that Okie deleted someones message because someone is a "dupe" :eek:
Or was it that he was afraid someone was going to get "duped" :rotfl:
Ok, ok I am sorry but I just couldn't resist on that golden opportunity...
 

MWEISSEN

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Mi. Trail Riders
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Dec 6, 1999
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Yeah I saw it. Sorry, I shouldn't have put this up here.

Terry, nice thread! I'll not mess with it anymore.

(Geez, I gotta get back to work or something. Too much time on my hands! :bang:
 
Dec 19, 2004
41
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woodsy said:
Very well said Terry!!!! :cool:
THANK YOU for taking the time to write out a very detailed account of reality!!
As previously stated, that Manistee Loop has all the answers we are looking for - Parallel Trails with room for the variety of equipment that is part of our modern day world!!!!!


All we need "now"....is for EVERY organization to quit trying to grab land exclusively for themselves (see the Huron Forest proposal) and quit using proposed "environmental studies" to shed negative light on a situation that can be FIXED/MAINTAINED by using the proper equipment on a daily basis! (let alone giving our enemies ammunition to use against us).

"...Maybe if the owners of this "new age" stuff would create/support and politisize a Rino riding organization the CCC (Cycle Conservation Club), the Snowmobiler Clubs, the Horse Riders Clubs (dont know how to spell Esquarioin) could join hands and get the job done!!!!!...."

I own one of these "new age" machines and was on the ground floor of two of these organizations.
One had un-elected leadership with at large directors and so much nepotism/greed and unresponsiveness that half the members had to finally bail out of it....the other refused to simply convene a meeting as to exactly what they were all about and put on record same . They then elected leadership to represent atving in Michigan through a "new" group of ALL orv enthusiasts...that nobody has heard from since the day this organization was conceived!!! (this "summit of user groups" couldn't even get a unified voice together for the single most important piece of work they would ever do for the next 25 years...the update plan!!!).

While I agree with you that very few four-wheel enthusiasts (save the full-size guys) could carry the jockstrap or bra of any man or woman in the cycle or snowmobile community.....who exactly is it that we should have all been following in these recent years? The guy who was charging parents $25 to sit in on their kid's training classes; got kicked off the board over an avalanche of complaints and is now cowboying it alone through the legislature? Or should we have been solidly behind the guys who promised to represent us the next chance the DNR/board gave us to bring a truly community wide group forward...behind LEADERS(?) who couldn't even make it to the crucial update plan meeting or give us all an update since? What are all these user groups going to do?...show up AFTER the DNR announces their plan... and then COMPLAIN about what they wouldn't bring forward because (in the words of their creator chairman....***"maybe they(we) didn't WANT to[/B].***???

If you're wondering about me heading something up....."sorry".....I'm still waiting for an explanation from the rest of this orv community as to why they ALLOWED the DNR to get away with leading us on for almost an entire year about applying for an open position on the board.....then yanking all of our qualifications away at the last minute by changing it to a "non-user" position. are the motorcyclists just simply "ecstatic" over this....while the rest of the users..."don't care"??? (what will be the next crap these guys try and pull after being emboldened by this "non-response"?).

I'm not fighting for this crap by myself and it is very clear by the silence in here that I'm striking a chord that very few want to hear or talk about (and that is solely because it is ALL darn right shameful). :|
 
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Fred T

Mi. Trail Riders
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Mar 23, 2001
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I'm not fighting for this crap by myself and it is [I said:
very[/I] clear by the silence in here that I'm striking a chord that very few want to hear or talk about (and that is solely because it is ALL darn right shameful). :|

No, TBL I think it's because no matter how much I try to read and understand what you are saying I can't - therefor I can't respond. I don't know whom or what you are talking about, I think only you do. What do you REALLY expect to accomplish here in our Michigan Trail Riders forum anyway? If you want change then you make change by activating the right channels of energy to get something done. The MTR forum won't do that for you, so contact your government, organize a group of like interested people and get something done. I've decided to try to understand everyones interests and see if we can all get what we want-that's farther along the combined interest trail than I've ever been before. That's why I've read and re-read what your have written. I want to understaqnd you.

So as one of the two people that created this forum I ask that you stop being an internet troll in our forum created to meet people, create rides together and promote off road trail riding here in Michigan and do something about what you believe in. If you want to gather folks of similar interest to support your movment through this forum than go ahead, but good god man either do something or shut the hell up will ya? Actions speak louder that typed words-make it happen and good luck to ya! :cool: Dirt Rider.net is a foum that represents OFF ROAD MOTORCYCLE enthusiasts and this forum is here for us to communicate so you are welcome here even though you are not a motorcyle enthusiast but keep it pertinent of the benifit of all of us and git 'er done.
 

woodsy

~SPONSOR~
Mi. Trail Riders
Jan 16, 2002
2,933
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MWEISSEN said:
Amen Fred! You've said it exactly right! I'm sure that a lot of us agree with you! :cool:

If your compiling a list of those of us who DO - PLEASE PUT MY NAME ON IT!!!
Well said Freddy!!
Woodsy
 

70 marlin

Mi. Trail Riders
LIFETIME SPONSOR
Aug 15, 2000
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Ditto! TBL: Maybe if you wanted to play a round of jungle golf, we could use that golf cart of yours?
 
Dec 19, 2004
41
0
The problem here, Fred....lies in the fact that nobody has ever dared question what your leadership has been actually doing behind closed doors for years on end and up to this very day. We sent one guy to look into it about 5 years ago....he was either just plain disliked; wanted to take part in the decision making; or both...and was broomed.

The next guy we sent up there with specific questions to ask of your leadership...not only ignored every single one of them after insisting that he would come back with the appropriate answers....but promised to represent us in a new "community wide" organization that we've never heard from again nor at the most important juncture in our recent history!!! (the update plan).

Finally, we are told that the board position that had been dangled in front of our faces for the express purpose of shutting us up in the wake of our representative's dismissal from the board....is 'suddenly' not open to the very people it was USED to pacify.....AND HERE SITS THE MOTORCYCLE COMMUNITY WITH BIG SMILES ON THEIR FACES...IN THE EXACT SAME MANNER THEY DID WHEN THE STATE SUDDENLY ANNOUNCED THAT ALL CORRESPONDENCE WITH OUR BOARD......SHOULD BE DONE THROUGH THE DNR FIRST.

You guys can sit there and pretend that you don't "understand" or try and convince your members that none of this "ever happened". But please don't try and shove sunshine up my butt in regards to how you are seeking to "understand" any of this recent history.

I was there; looked these guys straight in the eye; asked the questions and observed/reported their reactions....us plain country folk try and not make things much more 'complicated' than that here in southwestern Michigan....and have simply "mastered" the black and white difference between what is right and wrong.

Please don't try and rewrite the history of what I've been through these past 5 years because your "God" of motorcycling doesn't want the truth concerning any of this to go beyond this forum.

And if you don't think these issues are HUGE in the scheme of what you guys talk about every day on here....I'll have to say that a number of you are more arrogant and selfish than we might have been led to believe (and that's a shame for the amount of effort you've put into a legacy that 'tomorrow'....just might be written a little differently than your founders ever expected).
 
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UP Magoo

Member
Apr 4, 2002
565
0
It appears that TBL has a problem "with our leadership."
I guess I'd like to know WHO our "leader" is thats got TBLs panties all in a wad? And just what have they done (or not done) that has caused whatever mess TBL is alleging we are in?
Maybe then we'll understand... :think:
 
Dec 19, 2004
41
0
....And as far as "getting out and doing more"...WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO DO FURTHER THAT I HAVE NOT ALREADY ATTEMPTED IN THESE 5 LONG YEARS OF GETTING "BEAT UP" OVER SIMPLY TRYING?

Attend more meetings out of town?
How many different ones do you think I've travelled to? Did you see me there...or was your nose stuck so darn high up in the air that you couldn't even so much as extend a hand?

Speak up when I get there?
How many times do you think I've been GLARED AT for bringing up what nobody wanted to talk about because they were knee deep in the same crap?

Volunteer more?
How many times do you think I've tried with people who think that threatening your very life beforehand is some kind of "game"?

Spend more time helping youth?
Who held non-age/size specific training classes in SW MI. before me?

Spend more money?
How much do you think I have spent...out of my pocket....because I can't write off the same crap your leaders take advantage of each and every day?

Join more clubs?
Again, how many thousands do you think I've spent already and how does that compare to any one of you?

You can paint me as anything you'd like....but please DON'T accuse me of not putting my time and money where my mouth was.
 
Dec 19, 2004
41
0
UP Magoo said:
It appears that TBL has a problem "with our leadership."
I guess I'd like to know WHO our "leader" is thats got TBLs panties all in a wad? And just what have they done (or not done) that has caused whatever mess TBL is alleging we are in?
Maybe then we'll understand... :think:

Again, I have seen very few motorcyclists to date that didn't want to play "stupid" about who even gives them their marching orders.

Real hard to start a dialogue when the guy sitting across from you wants to play "dumb" from the get-go (as this is the main reason these conservations never go anywhere).

If you don't want your leadership :worship: to be held "accountable" for anything....fine.

Just don't act like the rest of us just all fell off the turnip truck.
 
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Fred T

Mi. Trail Riders
LIFETIME SPONSOR
Mar 23, 2001
5,272
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The Bottom Line said:
Please don't try and rewrite the history of what I've been through these past 5 years because your "God" of motorcycling doesn't want the truth concerning any of this to go beyond this forum.
QUOTE]


dude, we are a bunch of guys that live in Michigan and we have met on this forum. Myself and another member helped get this forum created on Dirt Rider.net a few years ago to encourage Off Road Motorcyclists in Michigan to meet, communicate and get together for fun. I think we have succeeded in accomplishing this, that really what we are all about. We have never even once had any major on line disagreements that I can remember on this forum-we all get along and we have a common interest. We like to ride, live and have fun with our motorcycles.

I'm afraid for some reason you have decided to attack our group and our forum for some reason. I seriously doubt that we have intentionally attacked your right to ride your Rino where you want when ever you want. You have insulted us, provoked us and generally really damped the spirit of what we represent. You are a very bitter and depressed person lashing out at our group and I ask that you just go find an ATV, Rino riders club forum and have discussion with them. You'll never get anywhere with this group and frankly I see no reason for you to return -you offer nothing to our group but insults and unfounded accusations.

Fred
 
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