The Muscle/Pony Car lives large...

[FruDaddy]

The Thunder Chicken is too sedate to be included in muscle car talks, I believe it was targeted at the geriatric crowd reflecting upon their youth. Pretty, and nostalgic, but by no means muscular.

Very few of the origianl muscle cars were designed as such, more likely than not, they were stripped down, or modified, versions of mid-sized (for the day) cars with large engines. The obvious exceptions were the pony cars (Mustang, Camaro, Challenger, and their stablemates which shared the came chassis').

 

[Okiewan]

Yup.. got me on the lingo. True story that the (still large) cars (early - mid-ish 60's) with the big blocks were actually the first Muscle Cars, the Camaros and Mustangs were in fact Pony cars. However, the term "muscle car" then evolved into anything with big power, a long hood and a short trunk. Too bad that era was so short!

When I think original muscle, it includes the mopars, yes, but the Impala 409, Pontiac tri-powers, the Ford 289's, 302's, 428/429s, Chevy 283, 396, 409, 427's et all ... there were plenty. And let's be perfectly honest here. The Hemi was an awesome motor, 383, 440 magnums, good stuff. But the overall car quality and design (matter of opinion) was never on par with the stuff from the General and Ford.

Pat... yessir, Mustang lovers like to forget the oil embargo "Mustangs" (mainly the "II"). The S95's bah... then the Fox bodies (90's) came along, made some great 1/4 mile cars, the 5.0 Coupes were pretty fast and a builder's dream (for the times). IMHO, when I think mustang, it's '66 - 70 and then 2000 (I think?) - 2004 (the "New Edge" Mustangs), and the best yet, 2005-present.

Wanna talk about some Chrysler "Challengers" and "Chargers" back in the 80's? ;)

 

[Rotorranch]

Kind of funny that you expect a purpose built mopar muscle car when the original muscle cars were far from purpose built. :)

Well...IMHO the original muscle cars were purpose built. :nod:

The purpose?










Kicking Asphalt! :laugh: :rotfl: :nener:

Rotor

 

[Okiewan]

Oh and the Mustang as a toy... I heard that. Just installed the "Ford Racing" Exhaust (made by Borla) tonight... sounds oh so freakin sweet. NOTHING and I mean NOTHING sounds like American V8. I don't care if it's Chrysler (although they sold to the Germans), GM or Ford... I love it! Just make sure it has two doors :nener:

Bring the farting wannabe ricers!

Pic 2, mine. Pic 1, my Bro-in-law's (Crispy's husband)

 

[FruDaddy]

Too bad that era was so short!

Amen to that!!!

When I think original muscle, it includes the mopars, yes, but the Impala 409, Pontiac tri-powers, the Ford 289's, 302's, 428/429s, Chevy 283, 396, 409, 427's et all ... there were plenty. And let's be perfectly honest here. The Hemi was an awesome motor, 383, 440 magnums, good stuff. But the overall car quality and design (matter of opinion) was never on par with the stuff from the General and Ford.

I am inclined to giving Pontiac the credit for really starting the movement. That GTO was a really good idea. Before that it was just Mustang or Corvette.

Wanna talk about some Chrysler "Challengers" and "Chargers" back in the 80's? ;)

Ummmmmm, NO!!!!! The thought of a Charger Daytona without a roof high wing makes my skin crawl.

I think that the most true to definition muscle car in recent times has been the late, great Cobra R. That car was all about rapid movement, with no frills. I wonder if ford would consider bringing it back with the current generation.

 

[Okiewan]

Amen to that!!!

I am inclined to giving Pontiac the credit for really starting the movement. That GTO was a really good idea.

A beautiful thing! The '66

 

[Jamir]

Like I said, it's a nice fast car (the SRT8 anyway), but, why name it after a muscle car? The Charger is an American icon. That shouldn't be messed with :nod:

It still is. The SRT8 and the Daytonas are works of art. Just like their older predecesors.


I think I spelled that wrong. :bang:


Now the 80's Chargers, those were sinful. And the 80's Nova? ACK!

 

[Offroadr]

Okie, I think your pic should match Jims! Let's roll some smoke!!

 

[stumanarama]

Jamir, if you want to talk about german chassis with american muscle, look up the merkur scorpio and xr4ti from the 80's, my friend has an xr4ti, it is god awful looking but very fast, it has the same 2.3 l turbo from the tbird turbo coupes and i think the svo mustang, it looks like the ford escort and the for mustang(both from the 80's) had sex, and gave birth to a downes syndrome child that spoke german, however on the speed aspect its a total sleeper running 1 atmo of boost and 175 or so hp, it starts walkin on by everyone third or so....... but anyway, that is a sweet looking mustang, imo they should bring back the 396 nova or chevelle SS and make the gold bowtie blue once more

 

[mox69]

Turbochargers + talk of 175HP = Rice rocket wannabe. When you have 8+ cylinders and are pumping 300+ HP then you can talk about your car in this thread :)
I think Chrysler had the best muscle cars overall. Chevy's are so popular today because of the massive availability of parts and the massive amount of interchangeability between cars, years etc. The Mopar cars ruled the road from 69-73.

You had to sign a liability waiver when you bought a car that included a HEMI, I mean holy crap!

Jamir, if you want to talk about german chassis with american muscle, look up the merkur scorpio and xr4ti from the 80's, my friend has an xr4ti, it is god awful looking but very fast, it has the same 2.3 l turbo from the tbird turbo coupes and i think the svo mustang, it looks like the ford escort and the for mustang(both from the 80's) had sex, and gave birth to a downes syndrome child that spoke german, however on the speed aspect its a total sleeper running 1 atmo of boost and 175 or so hp, it starts walkin on by everyone third or so....... but anyway, that is a sweet looking mustang, imo they should bring back the 396 nova or chevelle SS and make the gold bowtie blue once more

 

[Moose]

Oakster, is yours a GT 350 or 500?

My buddies dad has a 350, the thing is sick. I can only imagine what the 500 is like.

 

[sparkysakitas]

Turbochargers + talk of 175HP = Rice rocket wannabe. When you have 8+ cylinders and are pumping 300+ HP then you can talk about your car in this thread :)

yeah but what about the buick grand national and gnx of the late 80's????

 

[gwcrim]

The Challengers were always big cars. Bigger than a Mustang or Camaro. The rear axle from a Chrysler New Yorker would bolt straight in for a perfect fit. That's pretty wide for a pony/muscle car. Wheelbase on them was 110". I'm looking forward to getting a new Challenger and I'll sell my '70 to help pay for it. I just hope it seats five.

And the '80s Chargers???? I had an '89 GLHS with warmed over engine that would open a can of whoop azz on a GN or Mustang. Great sleeper car.

 

[Patman]

I am inclined to giving Pontiac the credit for really starting the movement. That GTO was a really good idea.

Pontiac might have made it prettier but I'm inclined to give the 1962 413 Max Wedge Darts the nod on real performance engines in something more mid-sizeish.

 

[XRpredator]

Pontiac might have made it prettier but I'm inclined to give the 1962 413 Max Wedge Darts the nod on real performance engines in something more mid-sizeish.

please, give the credit where its due. 1961 Impala SS 409

 

[dirt bike dave]

She's real fine, my 409.
Always turns in the fastest times...

That's my dual quad, 4 speed positraction 409...409...409...

 

[Patman]

please, give the credit where its due. 1961 Impala SS 409

Impala was a FULL size car with full size weight.

From musclecarclub.com:

Strict Definition of a Muscle Car:

A muscle car, by the strictest definition, is an intermediate sized, performance oriented model, powered by a large V8 engine, at an affordable price. Most of these models were based on "regular" production vehicles. These vehicles are generally not considered muscle cars, even when equipped with large V8s. If there was a high performance version available, it gets the credit, and not the vehicle that it was based on.

Examples: Buick GS, Chevrolete Chevelle SS, Dodge Charger R/T, Ford Torino/Cobra, Plymouth GTX, Plymouth Road Runner, Oldsmobile 442, Pontiac GTO

Fullsize Muscle Car:

The strict definition only includes intermediate size vehicles. In reality, performance oriented intermediate size vehicles didn't appear until 1964. Before then, manufacturers took existing fullsize vehicles and added extra performance to them. Because of this, the early fullsize performance vehicles are generally considered muscle cars.

Examples: Chevrolet Impala (SS only), Ford Galaxie (with 390 + cid engines only), Dodge Coronet (R/Ts only), etc.

Pony Cars and Compact Cars:

In addition to fullsize and intermediate muscle cars, a number of smaller vehicles started appearing on the automotive performance scene. These new "pony cars" and compact cars are generally considered muscle cars only if they have the top of the line performance engines and options.

Examples: Chevrolet Camaro (SS and Z28 models only), Ford Mustang (GTs and Boss only), Plymouth 'Cudas (no Barracudas), AMC Javelin, etc.

Personal Luxury Cars and Luxury Cars:

Although there were several personal luxury vehicles with performance engines and options, their heavy weight and high sticker prices went against the low cost performance definition of muscle cars. Therefore, they are not considered muscle cars.

Examples: Buick Riviera, Chrysler 300 Letter Cars, Pontiac Grand Prix, etc.

Two Seat Sports Cars:

Two seat sports cars such as the Chevrolet Corvette and the Ford Thunderbird are not considered muscle cars due to their high price and specialty nature. The only exception is the AMC AMX as it was relatively cheap, and was based on the AMC Javalin pony car.

Examples: AMC AMX, etc.

 

[devll1]

yeah that think is kick @r$$

 

[gwcrim]

Not to pick nits.... but hey... it's slow here: The Dodge Charger and Coronet and the Plymouth Road Runner and GTX were all B bodies. Same car, just different sheet metal. All legitimate 5/6 passenger mid sizers.

And just a little Friday trivia: The '70 Challenger and Barracuda (E bodies) were designed to compete with the Mercury Cougar.

 

[dirt bike dave]

And just a little Friday trivia: The '70 Challenger and Barracuda (E bodies) were designed to compete with the Mercury Cougar.

Which is to say they were designed to compete with the Mustang, which was nearly identical to the early Cougars under the skin.

The Mustang/Cougar were modestly updated Falcons.

The Mustang massively outsold the Falcon and Cougar, which shows how important good looks and a performance image can be on the showroom floor.

 

[gwcrim]

The Cougar, being a Mercury, was thought to be a little more 'upscale' of a car than a Mustang. Big deal, eh?

I can't believe that muscle cars are holding their value so well. I have a fish.....errr... a prospect to buy my '70 Challenger for an awful lot of money considering what it is.... or isn't .

 

[dirt bike dave]

I have a '67 Mustang fastback, but I've resisted the tempation to sell due to sentimental reasons. Needs a steering box, heater core, new paint, etc... My dad bought it from the original owner in late '68, who was buying a '69 Boss 302. Someday, I hope my son and I will return it to its former glory.

It started out life as a 225 hp 4 barrel 289, with a 4 speed top loader and a dealer installed 3.50 Detroit Locker rear. Has the center console, which is a valuable option. Dark 'midnight' blue paint. It has had Magnum 500 wheels (15") since about 1969, but many motor and suspension changes since then.

Back in the day, Dad put in Ford's red hot 'LeMans' solid lifter cam and proceeded to spank the original owner's Boss 302. That LeMans cam was barely streetable, but it was in the car for about 200,000 miles and really woke up the sleepy 289 (59 hp gain according to Ford's Muscle Parts guide). Combined with a few other mods turned it into a mid 13 second car (but not civilized like a modern car). I had a '70 351W in it for awhile, and it was not as strong, but still managed to take a nice running 340 Challenger two out of three (I spun on the first run).

Those early Challenger's sure look nice. Dad says the very rare 340 Six Pack was a real beast on the street back then.

 

[Okiewan]

A lil friendly gettin on it ...
A "cam'd" ZO6 vs a GT500 (stock super charger replaced with a Kenne Bell S/C)
$75K vs $50K
Let there be no mistake, If I had the dollars for either one, it would be the ZO6. Both are just a "tad" :whoa: out of my league.


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[Okiewan]

2008 ZO6 ... 505 HP from 427ci
I'll have mine in black please.

 

[XRpredator]

Impala was a FULL size car with full size weight.

From musclecarclub.com:

Strict Definition of a Muscle Car:

A muscle car, by the strictest definition, is an intermediate sized, performance oriented model, powered by a large V8 engine, at an affordable price. Most of these models were based on "regular" production vehicles. These vehicles are generally not considered muscle cars, even when equipped with large V8s. If there was a high performance version available, it gets the credit, and not the vehicle that it was based on.

Examples: Buick GS, Chevrolete Chevelle SS, Dodge Charger R/T, Ford Torino/Cobra, Plymouth GTX, Plymouth Road Runner, Oldsmobile 442, Pontiac GTO

Fullsize Muscle Car:

The strict definition only includes intermediate size vehicles. In reality, performance oriented intermediate size vehicles didn't appear until 1964. Before then, manufacturers took existing fullsize vehicles and added extra performance to them. Because of this, the early fullsize performance vehicles are generally considered muscle cars.

Examples: Chevrolet Impala (SS only), Ford Galaxie (with 390 + cid engines only), Dodge Coronet (R/Ts only), etc.

Pony Cars and Compact Cars:

In addition to fullsize and intermediate muscle cars, a number of smaller vehicles started appearing on the automotive performance scene. These new "pony cars" and compact cars are generally considered muscle cars only if they have the top of the line performance engines and options.

Examples: Chevrolet Camaro (SS and Z28 models only), Ford Mustang (GTs and Boss only), Plymouth 'Cudas (no Barracudas), AMC Javelin, etc.

Personal Luxury Cars and Luxury Cars:

Although there were several personal luxury vehicles with performance engines and options, their heavy weight and high sticker prices went against the low cost performance definition of muscle cars. Therefore, they are not considered muscle cars.

Examples: Buick Riviera, Chrysler 300 Letter Cars, Pontiac Grand Prix, etc.

Two Seat Sports Cars:

Two seat sports cars such as the Chevrolet Corvette and the Ford Thunderbird are not considered muscle cars due to their high price and specialty nature. The only exception is the AMC AMX as it was relatively cheap, and was based on the AMC Javalin pony car.

Examples: AMC AMX, etc.

so when do we get the strict definition of "truck" and "pickup"? ;)