TM 400 MX ride report, carb woes, help needed

Camstyn

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Oct 3, 1999
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Ride report..

I raced the bike in two classes last night, 250 and GP. The bike performed as good as expected on the MX track. The track is sandy and supercross-style, it gets VERY choppy on the straightaways. The bike handled everything well, although I'm still trying to figure out the cornering techniques as this is my first four stroke and I've only got three rides on it previously, not on a track. The bike feels as light as my '00 KX250 did, the motor is definitely stronger. The bike keeps revving and revving, I'm in love with this motor..
There are two 60 foot triples and a 70 foot tabletop, I felt comfortable immediately doing the triples after a 2 lap practice, no funny stuff happening in the air. The suspension soaks up hard landings better than my KX did. The 70 foot tabletop is trickier than the other two, as it is on a straightaway after a small double and tabletop. It is very tall and steep, and requires excellent timing, you don't want to come up a hair short or a hair long on this one. (Or at least *I* don't.. I'm close to 300lbs.)
First lap I came up about 3 feet short, it bottomed out hard and stung the feet and wrists but not as bad as my KX used to. Every lap after that I hit it perfect, except I overshot it slightly one lap and it wasn't too bad. In my 250 moto after the tabletop, the bike felt like it was out of gas. It bogged and bogged until I was almost stopped, then it idled a bit. I gassed it to get back on pace and it bogged again.. I figured I misjudged my fuel level before the race. I slowly rode back to the truck and checked the level, it had maybe a half inch of gas on the bottom of the tank. This gas tank is different from what I'm used to, the bottom is very flat so it looks deeper than it is. I figured the gas was sloshing around and the carb ran dry. I topped it up and went out for my next moto, the bike ran fine but after 3 or 4 laps it did the exact same thing again, on the same part of the track. I know the tank was almost full, so this baffled me. I was about to pull off but figured I should just finish the moto carefully to gain some points as this was the first race of the series, and since I DNF'd the 250 moto I scored no points.

I rode around for two more laps slowly, making sure it wasn't going to starve for gas again on the face of a triple. It felt fine so I picked up the pace a bit, but by this time I was in near last place so it didn't matter much. I finished 8th, and the bike didn't miss a beat.

I don't know what's going on, I'm concerned about this bog.. If this happens on the face of a triple I'm, well, screwed. Any ideas?

I was thinking about getting a larger fuel petcock and fuel line, raise the needle two clips and go two sizes bigger on the main jet to see if this effects it at all but I don't think that the jetting is what's causing this. The bike runs very strong and this seems to be an isolated incident, it feels like it's getting plenty of gas the rest of the time.

Moto 1, 250, DNF. 0 points.
Moto 2, GP, 8th. 13 points.

Not the start to the season that I wanted, but at least I got some points in one of my motos.

Any ideas on what I should be looking for in the carb when I take it apart? Like I say, I'll try richening up the jetting but I really doubt it would cause this kind of symptom.
 

mxbundy

Sponsoring Member
Feb 16, 2001
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Hemet, CA.
Sound like you have some trash in the float bowl. When you jump and land it gets sucked up into the main jet. could be water also. This happened to me once , just as you described, and it was water in my fuel.
At 300# are you running stock suspension? I`m at 265# and I dont even go near a track until I get it resprung.

bundy
 

Camstyn

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Oct 3, 1999
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Yup, it's completely stock, I haven't even set the sag or turned a clicker yet.

Costs prohibit me from respringing it at the moment, as well as I want to get the suspension broken in and dialed as well as I can before I make any changes.
I don't think it was water in the fuel, as I ran the first tank almost dry and then topped it up with some fresh juice from my trusty 4 gallon can.. No water entered the equasion, except perhaps from the last time I washed the bike. I figure any water that got in would have gone through in the first tank anywho.

I'm going to pull it apart this week and check for trash in the floatbowl, that's my best guess too but I'm not sure how it would have gotten in there.. The bike is pretty much brand new with only a few rides on it.
 

euro gasgas

Sponsoring Member
Sep 18, 2001
287
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I have the same thing happen on an XR after sucking water into the carb -> my guess is that you either had some junk floating around in the tank and it stuck the floats for a bit. Either that, or you had some moisture in the bottom of the tank - when you almost ran it dry it made it's way to the carb bowl.

I'd flush out the gas tank, clean the carb, set the floats, check the carb vents for obstruction/pinches, add tees to vent them up as well as down if it isn't that way already and add a fuel filter if it doesn't have one...

jeff
 

smb_racing

Master of None
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Jul 31, 2000
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I agree it sounds like water bog. It generally comes from water in the fuel you purchase not as a factor in riding through water or washing the bike. Drain the float bowl or just remove the carb and clean it throughly. Also a trick I do to every bike I get, cut the carb vent hoses at a sharp angle, this way if gunk gets in them you can squeeze the tube and gunk falls out, I also zip tie the ends together and route them in a place where they won't get kinked.

How about some pics, the TM bikes look awesome :)
 

Camstyn

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Oct 3, 1999
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Lots of great ideas, thanks guys. I'll check it out tomorrow night and let you know what I find.

I keep intending on snapping some pics before going riding but I always get too excited and by the time I remember, I'm out riding and the camera is at home. I'll try to get some soon..
 

Larsey

Member
Jul 25, 2001
29
0
Similar problem on a '99 GasGas 200, pulled the float bowl and it had a small piece of plastic in there. I think is was from the gas tank when they drilled it out. It also caused fuel to run out overflow tubes.
 

chasejj

Member
Nov 29, 2001
75
0
Cam,
I am probably close to your size (265lbs) and ride the same bike. You need to up your spring rate considerably. Forks to .51 and shock to 6.4(the stiffest Ohlins). Nick at ProValve can set you up. He did mine and had to rewind some .49 springs to .51 for me. Sag is perfect.
 

Camstyn

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Oct 3, 1999
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I pulled the gas tank and drained it through a filtered funnel, got some black particles caught up in the filter. I figure they are plastic chunks, I didn't inspect. The gas can I was using also had some similar particles floating in the gasoline left in the can, so this is probably what caused it. I'll pull the carb tonight and clean out the jets/float bowl.

I'll drop the clip on the needle two notches as you suggested, chase, and let you know the results after I'm done riding tomorrow.

Just a side note, if you think a TM looks quality, wait till you strip the bodywork off.. Wow! KX frame my a$$, the tubing on this thing is HUGE! And the welds.. Oh my, do they know how to build a bike.

This is how they should all be built...

Cam

PS.. Tall seat foam/gripper cover, lowboy footpegs, radiator guards, and GPR mounting kit on order. Taller bars may be next. Seating position is fantastic but the pegs are definitely on the high side for the sitting-standing transition.

I hate to replace the stock footpegs and handlebars as the stock units are so nice.. Being 6'5 bites! :whiner:
 

chasejj

Member
Nov 29, 2001
75
0
Well, I never actually rode it with the stock damping. I had ProValve do it prior to even riding it knowing that I would probably blow through the stock valve stack with those truck springs. :aj:

But you have to get the sag correct as a baseline regardless. Maybe you can get satisfactory performance from the stock shims. You should probably also add a little oil to the forks 5cc=1mm to raise the level. That will help with bottoming. :moon:
 

chasejj

Member
Nov 29, 2001
75
0
I got my Emig top clamp in today. It looks AWESOME! barmounts higher and farther forward. Separate hand guard mounts from the fork clamps. Absolutely flawless machining.

BTW. Also got the radiator guards. They are not Devol but Flatland Racing. Heavier guage aluminum than the Devol's. They are KTM 300-380 models modified to fit the TM by Paul Bloyer who is opening a TM shop in Minnesota.
This guy is very nice to deal with and is an absolute TM nut. He is sporting some of the trailer decals I had made.
Scotts rear disc guard came in as well. As with all their stuff it is sweet. :)

I scratched up my side panels a bit in the woods. So I ordered some new graphic panels for the sides and front. Socal Decal has the exact patterns and you can get them preprinted if you want. I got them in dark green and they look bitchen! :aj:

I guess all I can do now is get Revloc to get me a clutch and there is nothing else I can do to this thing that I want to do.
 

Camstyn

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Oct 3, 1999
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I just picked up my Acerbis Flag-light handguards today, along with a set of DeVol KTM250/300/380 radiator guards today. I'll see how it fits tonight, I get the feeling the brake side hand guard won't fit as the master cylinder/perch is quite different from a KTM. It's a Nissin master cylinder, I'm not sure what Japanese brand it is closest to, to order the hand guard mounts for.

Do you have any contact info for Paul Bloyer?

Cam
 

chasejj

Member
Nov 29, 2001
75
0
The hand guards need to fit a Honda on the brake side and a KTM on the clutch side. Welcome to TM land!! :aj:

I will send a PM with Paul's number.
 

vntgmx

Member
Nov 12, 2001
83
0
I'm curious, how are you guys finding the starting of the TM thumpers?
I'm poking around on a TM250MX Thumper & am really curious how the starting is on them....
 

Camstyn

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Oct 3, 1999
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Mine is actually starting first kick, almost every time.

Cold starting drill:

turn on gas, pull out choke
give it two twists of the throttle (if it's been a day or so since started)
find top dead center, push the kickstarter a couple inches past, then let it lift to the top and it should fire first try.

Hot starting:
Find TDC, kick a bit past, lift kickstarter to top of stroke, kick, ride.

The bike has a hot start knob on the carb (similar to the YZF) but I've never had to use it.

My buddy has a KTM 400SX which is known to be a good starter.. While his has no procedure of finding TDC, I usually have mine running first before he can get his lit up as his usually takes more than one kick.
 

vntgmx

Member
Nov 12, 2001
83
0
thanks for the info....sounds easy enough...

bad news from the dealer though....no TM250 thumper in MX trim...enduro version only for this year as TM is still not satisfied enough with the engine performance for the MX version...400 maybe? :confused:
 

Camstyn

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Oct 3, 1999
2,247
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Yeah, mine is the only TM thumper in MX trim in north america.

Apparently the USA don't plan on bringing any in until the 530 and 250s are ready to go.. Let me know if you're serous and I'll get you in contact with the Canadian distributor..
 

Camstyn

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Oct 3, 1999
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One side note.. The only difference between the MX and enduro trims is the 18" rear wheel, rear sprocket size, 6spd tranny, head/tail lights, and a clear gas tank. The MX comes wired for lights but has none attached.
 

CanAm1

Member
May 16, 2002
39
0
Never fails when you want the good stuff you have to get a bike from Canada TWSUSA,do to the fact that some dealers in the US had bikes sitting in the show room 98/99 models where gun shy about bringing in the 4 stroke.Smart money could have one shipped into the US crate.Have fun
 

vntgmx

Member
Nov 12, 2001
83
0
well I went with a TM250 enduro thumper & I'm stripping the lights & excess wires etc. adding a front number plate & going motoing....
comes with a Magura hydraulic clutch stock which was a nice surprise as the Grimeca isn't as light & smooth as the Magura...it starts very easy & seems to rev quickly but doesn't rev as high as a YZ250F...I'll have to wait to ride it before I can say how the motor will compare to a YZF in real world conditions...just putt putted it around the lot...other then that it comes with all the high quality beautiful hardware that TMs are known for...pick it up Thursday & I'll be breaking it in Friday ;)
 

Camstyn

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Oct 3, 1999
2,247
2
vntgmx, I was just going to send you a note, I may have a line on a '02 TM 250 MX thumper.. Sounds like you don't need it now though. :)

Congrats on the new bike! I look forward to hearing a ride report on the 250 powerplant.

Are you sure it doesn't rev as high as a 250F? My 400 apparently revs to 14,000rpm. By the feel of it, I don't doubt those numbers, this thing SCREAMS..
 

vntgmx

Member
Nov 12, 2001
83
0
as I said it was just a quick putt putt ride....after friday I'll be able to give the lowdown....I own & ride a '02 YZ250F so I'm pretty sure of my first impression but friday will be the tell all as I'll have both bikes & be able to ride them back to back ;)
 
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