Tough Call: YZ-250 vs. YZ-450F

[DrZero]

1) 6'0 220lbs
2) moderately aggressive, will try anything once, like to wheely
3) 1/2 gnarly trails in Western Oregon - ruts, mud, evil rocks (thanks a lot OHV program); 1/4 Eastern Oregon desert - high speed puckerbush dodging, dry lakes, dirt roads; 1/4 dunes (I hope)
4) 30 years continuous riding experience?
5) Unrealized dreams of "Best in the Desert"
6) Perform basic maintanance and some small projects but can afford to take to shop for big stuff. Hate down time though either way.
7) Yamaha bigot. (KTMs of interest, but no experience w/)
8) All major brands have good dealers nearby.
9) Sell current dirtbike and buy new one.
10) Reviews of some previous DB I have owned:
60s and 70s: various smallish XRs and two strokes. Most memorable Suzuki 90cc 2 stroke. 5* for being young, care free and riding everywhere all the time w/o licenses or cares. (but we can't go back, can we, and the bikes were not very good compared to now)

Yamaha XT-350. OK for era, too heavy, Hard to start when hot. Street legal. 3*.
Kawi KLX-300: Underpowered, reliability issues, too small. But nimble on trails. 2*
Yamaha YZ-250: fun on trails and dunes. No maint. issues. Topped out in 5th on dry lakes and fire roads... 4*
Suzi DRZ-400S: bought for dual sport. by the time I put on decent tires, regeared for dirt so I can loft the front tire, pulled off useless crap I was left with a very tractable but way too heavy dirtbike I take everywhere in my truck !! (Tis the one to get chopped for the new guy). Battery is a disposable item, regardless of charging strategy used. 3*

SO: It's been a fun five years on the big DRZ but I'm ready and able to move up. I bought it around 2000 at the start of the "4 stroke boom". Things have moved on.

I'd have to say that for what I do it has worked fine, but all in all I wish I had kept the YZ-250, which did pretty much the same but weighed 80lbs less.

I've had good luck with Yami's. So it's down to one of the two in the title or perhaps the WR. While the WR seems in some ways the most practical I've come to appreciate that the less crap on a dirtbike the better. So the YZ-450F (no lights, don't need-em, no odo, no kickstand, no electric start - nice to have but a source of unreliability on the DR) appeals a bit more than the.

It maybe that I have never ridden a 'woods bike' enough to appreciate what I am missing, or else that being on the big side i drive the MX bike suspension hard enough, but I really haven't had trouble with the suspension of the YZ or DRZ on the trials, either way. (one theoretically being too stiff, and the other maybe too soft?)

The only other bike that has some attraction is the KTM-300 XC-W which seems to be the best large purpsoe built 2 stroke enduro, but I have little experience (either first hand or second hand) w/ the brand.

So: do I go w/ what I know (YZ-250) or move to the 4 stroke side? I think the big 450 would rule in the desert, more fun for high speed dry lake runs. The 2-T I know works great in the woods (for me, pretty much as is)?? Dunes? I've had success with the 2-T in the past, but see lots of people ripping it up w 450s now.

Help, opinions, guidance, insults are all welcome.

 

[cr85rb_rider]

I have a RM250, im not even getting hardly anytraction and it has plenty of torque, i dont think i could ever find a place to use all of it. From what i heard 450s arnt alot of matenence for a 4 stroke, because you dont have to bump the red limter all the time.

I honestly dont know why everyone needs a 450 there barley faster than 250s. I'd get a the YZ250...

Or maybe even a cr500, if you find a good deal...

 

[Racesmith]

450...its always nice to have extra top and low when you need it.

 

[Moose]

get the yz250 if you're riding trails

if you want a 4 stroke, trail friendly bike, get a wr450f

 

[DrZero]

if you want a 4 stroke, trail friendly bike, get a wr450f

Yeah, I have this sinking feeling that might be the right choice but I think: wow, you're back up to 250lbs with that (I estimate my DRZ is 285 with what's been stripped off...)

Does the WR stand for Wide Ratio? KTM makes a big deal about the trannies on their enduros. I need to go look at the specs .. are WR and YZ-F trannies different? Internal ratios or just external? Hmmm.

Thanks for taking time to respond!

 

[DrZero]

450...its always nice to have extra top and low when you need it.

True true. Dry lakes and deserts allow you to use it. So do the dunes but only for badder men than me! (I have a autographed Seth poster in my garage!)

 

[4thGearAndPinned]

I likw what racesmith said, but the 250 will please you also.

 

[DWAYNE 7018]

Grab the yz 250 its the perfect bike for all your needs.

 

[QikZ06]

Why not go with the yz, do a few mods to make it trail friendly. I guessing, but the price difference is maybe a grand + between the bikes. Plus you will save yourself about 45 pound of that crap weight you dont care about and have a great bike you are familiar with.

 

[YZ/250]

Yz 250

 

[mojave ron]

it really depends on your personal taste of power ,and how its put out....i have a 04 rm250 and nothing my buddies 06 kx450 can do that mine can not..however i rode my other buddies 04crf450 and all i can say is wow! ..it was more like my old kx500 than my 250 any day...infact it beat(not by much)the kx500 in all types of drag racing...dirt or black top...but saying that i didnt sell the 500 and buy a 250 because i wanted more power....the fact is the kx500 wore me out alot faster than the 250...and at the end of the day i was faster on the 250, than the much more powerfull top/bottom 500....dirtrider summed it up rather nicely...they believed ricky would have done just fine on his 250...however ricky believed the 450 was simply better in stadium whoops than the 250...hence his reason to switch..that and i think pressure from the factory so they could sell the new shinny 4t..unless your at the elite levels of racing it dont matter one bit...i mean **** johnny o'mara beat all but 2 guys in the mxds on his "obsolete" 125....at our mortal level more isnt allways faster...

 

[NM_KDX200]

I went thru this exact same decision last fall and I ended up with the 450F for a couple of reasons: my dealer gave me a great deal on a leftover model ($1500 less than the '07 250), I ride much more track than trails, and I just wanted to try a big thumper. Now that I've had it, I'm fine with it and I think I made a good decison.

If I rode more trails, I think I'd be happier on the 2S for the starting, lower COG, and less brutal low-end. However, since I'm 5' 6", 170 lbs, if I were going to ride trails, I'd be on a KTM 200 again.

So, even though I picked the 450F, in your case, I'd say 250 2S.

 

[RMZRyder]

Whats the deal with 2 smokers and trails. I hear a lot of people say a 2s works better in the woods, why, I like my thumper in the woods because of its brutal bottom end. In the tight technical parts it makes it easier to blast out of corners, on flat sharp turns I can control the throttle easier and on the straights it is flat out faster, I dont get it please explain most peoples theory of the 2s better in the woods, or prefered.

 

[DrZero]

1. You stall more in the woods. It's inevitable. Trail surprises, too tight turns, logs you don't make it over on the first try, other riders. 2s start right up, even more so when hot. 4s are hard to start when hot. Nothing worse than a dead bike 3/4 up a hill that won't kick over. Thus the popularity (requirement) for a button on enduro 4st. I haven't ridden the latest and greatest 4 strokes which have hot start dodads. But I bet I've spent 20 mins trying to get my other two four strokes started in the past. (See 1st post of mine that started thread for details)

2. Weight. Bad. Again, new 4 strokes are getting lighter, but it's really the pure MX ones (no button) that are close to 2 stroke weight. And even then they feel heavier due to more top heavy design (all those cams and stuff on top of motor vs. one little spark plug on the smoker), more reciprocating weight (spinning stuff is a gyro).

3. What your used to. 2stroke guys think 2strokes are easier. No engine breaking so the rear brake is used. Rear break a 4stroke and you stall at, at which point you hope you got the heavier one (even on a steep hill) because of point 1.

(4stroke guys think four strokes are easier!)

4. Hit. I found all three of my four strokes lacked it. The 300 was gutless in the extreme. The 350 was actually the ballsiest of the three 4 strokes I've owned, but the 250 2s kicked it. Snap the clutch, wheelie. That's way useful on trails. Somone here says they like the 250sx best for trails for just this reason.

Again, I've looked at the power curves on the new big-bore racing four strokes, this does not appear to be much of a problem anymore given they may big power all over. My DRZ know has some decent snap (14/48 gearing) but can no longer do an effortless 65mph, thus removing one of the cool reasons for buying it.

5. Failure mode? This might be me but usually when a 2s has problems it just starts running ****ty, but still runs and can get you back. Everytime I've been stranded DEAD it's been on a 4s. The failure modes tend to catastrophic. (Total tranny lock up on KLX. Total dead battery on DR (no one in my group carries jumpers on in their butt pack.)It did fire up back at the truck. And this after it showed perfect charge in the AM. )

Nothing sucks more than pushing a bike over a trail you'd like to be riding on.

 

[RMZRyder]

Those are all excellent reasons to prefer a 2 smoker, it almost makes me wanna go buy one. I have failed to realize any of those. I bought my 450 brand new in late 2006 therefore I have had no mechanical difficulties and it pops wheelies really easy, and I guess Im one of the lucky ones, when I stall it (wich is usually rare) I can start it back up almost every time in 2 kicks with it in gear, hot start pulled and I kick with almost all the force I can muster. I still really concentrate on not stalling it, I almost ride it like a 125 in the woods i.e. slipping the clutch a lot. I only have about 4 mabee 5 atomic kicks in me at one time, and that is definetly what it takes to get it rolling again. I have kicked holes in 2 pais of boots kickin 450's over (work boots not riding boots). Thanks for the insight, I might go get a smoker for the trails. :cool:

 

[MX86]

now if this bothers anyone then i'm sorry but i dunno why some people put the 450 as this compleatly dominant bike that nothing could touch... the 250 2 stroke is pretty much equal in most catagories with the 450 (with the exception of the track with pro vs pro). which i hope it would be with almost double the disp. but seriously for trail riding a yz250 would be ideal, granted make a few small changes to make it a little more friendly if you wish, pesonally i love the gnarly hits and awesome midrange the way it is. but i can climb any hill, jump any jump, and drag any 450F out there. and the 250 will be right there with them, old saying it's 95% rider 5% bike.

 

[RMZRyder]

Not sure of the thread or post but I red it on DRN about two Hondas and 2 pro's, one bike was a cr 500 and the other was a crf 450 with a weisco big bore kit that took it to 500cc an a stage 2 cam. I think the horsepower difference was 2 hp in favor of the smoker, but the thumper made its power longer and was more managable. Both pros were faster on the thumper. Thumpers are just easier to ride, not really more dominant. It was a good article if someone can find it and repost it that would be cool.

 

[Micahdawg]

I'm not trying to pick an argument, but I have to disagree with some of this "why the two stroke is better in the woods."

1. It has been my experience (on my 2001 RM) stalling is more of an issue on the two stroke than say an 05-06 or 07 YZ250F. The biggest problem I have is lack of flywheel weight on this bike. That coupled with the lack of low end torque cause me to stall the bike WAY WAY more than a 250F. It's actually quite annoying since it doesn't give you any indication. Just be aware that if you are chuggin along on the two smoke, hop a log or something, then bam....it can just stop.

Restarts are easier, no doubt, but not stalling is preferred. And quite frankly the hot choke has worked great on the above mentioned 250F's. As long as you pull the lever and don't gas it, you can usually refire in one kick.

2. Weight is really a non issue with a 250 vs. 250F. Some of the 250F's are even lighter than some fo the 250's. Now with a 450, yes, you'll have a little more weight, but not significant enough IMO to make a huge difference. You can do all kinds of tricks to increase handling if that is what you are really after (lowering the suspension by just 5mm can make a big difference).

True, you have all that valvetrain weight which probably makes the bikes center of gravity higher, but enough to notice?

3. The engine breaking can be both good and bad. I've heard a lot of guys claim they can dive into the corners a lot HOTTER on a 4 stroke because of the extra engine braking. So I don't see that as a disadvantage at all. Simply a difference. You could probably even claim that rear brake life is increased on the four stroke making it advantageous

4. The hit...no doubt the two stroke has a harder hit. But that also makes power less tractible. I.E. reduces traction. I know first hand how annoying this can be. I've drag raced all of the above mentioned 250F's and it's hard for me to beat them because I go up in smoke right off the line. Once I"m hooked and pulling I'm usually starting to run out of gear. If I can hook, then it's over...but for any kind of riding/racing, I think traction would be preferred unless you like spraying roost on your friends :)

5. No doubt, way more to go wrong on a four stroke. That's why I still ride a two stroke. But I don't think I would be any slower or less nimble in the trails on a 250F. I would just have to adapt a little.

 

[DrZero]

Thanks for your thoughtful and excellent posting. I think you make some interesting points. As I noted at the top of the thread a lot of my experience on 4-strokes is on previous generations of them, bikes like the DRZ-400, KLX-300 and even the XT-350.

So getting feed back like this on the newer four strokes is exactly what I was hoping for.

It's interesting that you compare the new generation 250 four strokes head to head for trail use with 250 2-strokes. I have up to now followed the racing rule which is that equivilent of a 250 2-stroke is a 450 4-stroke.

You've done a good job of explaining why the 250 4-stroke might be as appropriate to look at.

 

[Micahdawg]

I kind of missed the 450F in your title, so sorry for steering it to the 250F. Fact is, the rule "250F's = 125 and 450F's = 250" is wrong.

Two strokes are not twice as efficient, more like 2/3's again efficient (due to a lot of wasted fuel charge). So a 250's equivalent would be more like a 417F and a 125's would be a 208F. The 250's still do a good job of fighting with the 450F, but man, the 125's just get slaughtered by the 250F's.

I think the technology from the 450F just doesn't get lost as much when moving down to the 250F (that some extra revs can't overcome) whereas the 125 is a huge jump down from a 250 two stroke. Almost all of the low end power disappears.

the 250F is still a very FAST BIKE. It should have been evident to anyone who watched the Jeremy McGrath Invitational where Josh Grant's lowly Honda 250F nearly whooped Kevin Windhams big 450! Even today, if you look at the top 10 racers in each SX class, the Lites are running within a second of the Big boys. Not just a couple guys either, but down the line.

Two big considerations for me when choosing an F bike would be (1) 250F being lighter and more flickable, and (2) 450 possibly having longer engine life due to decreased revs (unless you are an animal). But I really haven't done a whole lot of research into the F's since I'm one of the few holdouts who still like my smoker.

 

[AlStar250]

Alot of it has to do with what year bikes we are talking about. For instance, people have all said the 2s "hit" is much harder, but from '03 and up - the YZ250 has had the most 4s-like motor of any of the smokers. It very very broad, can be chugged at low rpm for woods and such, yet comes on nice without the super "pipey" feeling of the traditional 2s. And subsequently, the '04-'05 YZF have a pretty hard hit that will blow up the rear tire alot harder than any YZ. That's what Yamaha has been trying to tune out of the 4s for the '06-'07 models. For the most part, the 4s steers with the front tire, the 2s is a rear-steer vehicle. There are alot of things to look at when deciding and you have to weigh the pros and cons - One thing I could not get over was the amount of cash I had to dump into my '05 RMZ450 to get the motor rebuilt after dropping a valve 10 miles from camp in the middle of Glamis and having to ride it back. I actually didn't realize right away that something was totally wrong, but when the bike quit...well? Total parts and labor was in the neighborhood of $2800 - and I bought my '05 YZ250 for $3200 a year old. For me that a TON of cash for repairs - I'm almost scared to ride it hard - ALMOST!

There are things I love about the 4s - Gas mileage - I ride alot in Baja and having the extra mileage and the ability to gas up whenever I find fuel is awesome. I couldn't do it on a 2s, cuz I'd have no where to mix it up. In the sand, the hard pack, anywhere, the 4s goes farther on a tank. There are places I ride that are BLM owned land, and a 4s with a spark arrestor is the only-legal setup allowed. If you ride a bigger track or a place where you have the room to allow for revs and have adequate traction the 4s WILL BE and feel faster. There's an addiction that comes with 11,000 rpm of 50+ hp pull -

Things I love about the 2s - Lightweight flickability, no 4s jumps like the smoker. Low maintenance - clean the filter, change tranny fluid every so often and your done - No valves to check or any **** like that - seriously. I've done the motor once - TOP and BOTTOM for less than $400 - that a HUGE difference for me to stay riding. Subsequent top ends are going to be about $200 a pop. Responsiveness - now I can only speak about '03 and up YZ's. They are right now power. Find yourself a gear tall, clutch it - need to clear something you didn't see, a 2s doesn't find you toeing the shifter in hopes of getting the R's up before you get there - on a 2s...clutch it and pull up. Its a matter of style. I personally wouldn't be in a hurry to buy a used 4s - who know how long it will be before you're the one without a bike for 6months saving $3k for a new motor...If you go with the 4s, go new and the 5 valve has proven to last longer than most any other 4s out there

 

[Micahdawg]

Good comments alstar....

I think whatever tendencies I had to explore the F market just vaporized after reading your post. :) And it's nice to hear that the YZ's are THAT good. One question I had, didn't the YZ250 get an aluminum frame like...uh, 2006? I'm just wondering if you have riden an aluminum framed 2s and have any thoughts on it vs. the steel frame 2s?

 

[DrZero]

The aluminum frame did great things for the 2s. I owend a 2000 YZ-250 and have ridden the 06. No question it feels lighter, much lighter than the 10lb difference would indicate.

Around here the new 07 YZ-250s are all gone. Lots of 4strokes in stock though.

 

[mongial]

If your an avid weekend warrior (not the racing type) then a 2s for the overall cheaper maintenance is the way to go. Like has been quoted, $400 for a new motor compared to $2800 is a big deal. By the way the KTM 300 is a hell of a good bike!