using the clutch

killerkx · Mar 22, 2007

while riding last weekend i saw this guy ripping it up pretty good, and i noticed he wasnt using his clutch to shift gears... he would only use it to get going from a stop... is this common practice, or does this guy just not know what he's doing? i use my clutch every time i shift, i thought it would be bad for the tranny if i didnt use it...

HubertGarfunkleIII · Mar 22, 2007

I also have a question about the clutch.

1) what is "popping" the clutch?
2) they say when you pull in the clutch its better to use 1 or 2 fingers so you can keep most of your hand on the bars. Well if I use only 1 or 2 fingers I cant pull the clutch all the way into the bars because my other fingers are blocking it. Does it need to go all the way in? or only about halfway? Like do you just need to pull it until you feel it give?

FruDaddy · Mar 22, 2007

To answer both at once, the clutch/no clutch debate has been discussed here many times before, and it is usually a stalemate, but no-clutch under full power can damage gears. I prefer clutching under power. Without the clutch, it is better to ease off the throttle a little to shift.
Popping the clutch is generally just letting it out too fast.
It is definitely better to use only 1 or 2 fingers, I use 2. If your cable is adjusted properly, you don't need the lever to touch the grip. I run just enough slack in the cable that the lever doesn't touch the perch when it is at rest. If it is touching the perch, then it is probably too tight and could prevent the clutch from holding properly (premature failure is the likely result).

mbaird · Mar 22, 2007

I've never tried shifting under power without the clutch . Is it
even possible ?? I know that when I drag race I pull hard on the shifter from 1st and it wont go to 2nd until I stab the
clutch ( power shifting ).
I will shift without the clutch when I am in a situation that time is crucial , but I will back off the throttle to match gears.

FruDaddy · Mar 22, 2007

mbaird said:
I've never tried shifting under power without the clutch . Is it
even possible ??.

I hear that it is..[/QUOTE]but I will back off the throttle to match gears.[/QUOTE]You aren't really matching gears, that is a whole different animal that truck drivers know well. You are just unloading them so that they will float (synchronize may be a better word) into each other more easily.

HubertGarfunkleIII · Mar 22, 2007

FruDaddy said:
To answer both at once, the clutch/no clutch debate has been discussed here many times before, and it is usually a stalemate, but no-clutch under full power can damage gears. I prefer clutching under power. Without the clutch, it is better to ease off the throttle a little to shift.
Popping the clutch is generally just letting it out too fast.
It is definitely better to use only 1 or 2 fingers, I use 2. If your cable is adjusted properly, you don't need the lever to touch the grip. I run just enough slack in the cable that the lever doesn't touch the perch when it is at rest. If it is touching the perch, then it is probably too tight and could prevent the clutch from holding properly (premature failure is the likely result).

what is the perch?

pradami · Mar 23, 2007

the thing that holds the clutch lever onto the bars...in layman's terms

SteveinSpringHill · Mar 23, 2007

Well a clutch basket in a KX65 won't hold much abuse. My kids 07' bike has 6 months on it. And I spent the better part of the afternoon filing down the ridges in the outer and inner basket. He's learned one shot on the clutch is all he (should) need. If I can get his entry speed up some more and a little more hp he shouldn't need it at all.

All schools down here teach the rider to be consistent more than anything. So a downshift (no clutch) with fast entry and a steady roll on is what they want. This keeps the rear tire consitently glued to the track. The rpm's should be peaked just after exit and shift up, that is good consistency. But with a little 65cc motor it's harder to keep the torque working for you.

I had an instructor working with him on Wed. and "I" thought he was slipping the clutch thru the corner and asked my son. Before I finished the instructor knew it was the clutch itself slipping and bad. Once he showed me Jake wasn't on the clutch I felt better but knew we had a problem. The grooves were hanging the plates up from a good firm contact.

Last night's practice my son couldn't believe the difference his corner speed and exit were awesome. Just need him to push it more on entry and lay it over on the gas.

Pull that side cover and check for those nasty grooves in the clutch basket!!

High Lord Gomer · Mar 23, 2007

Go ahead and order the new clutch basket now. Filing them down is a temporary fix that will usually last just long enough for the new one to get there. If Hinson makes one for the 65 I would go with that.

I've never tried shifting under power without the clutch . Is it
even possible

I doubt it. Some bikes won't shift under power even if you do pull the clutch all the way in. I know the electrical shifter I was looking at for my bike I did a little drag racing with has something that momentarily interrupted the spark to unload the transmission so it could shift.

As far as fingers on the clutch, for 20 years I used two fingers on the clutch, now I only use 1. Ironically, street riding is what got me to finally only use 1.

FruDaddy · Mar 23, 2007

Really Gomer, I started on the street, and the dirt riding took the extra fingers off of my street levers.
I was watching the American Chopper with the NAPA bike last night and noticed when they were installing the air shifter that they mention a very quick ignition cut for the shift. There must be something to the "trying to shift under power is bad" theory.

High Lord Gomer · Mar 23, 2007

How many fingers were you using / how many now?

Clutching it up in 2nd on the FZ1 is what made me hold on with 3 and only use one for the clutch.

To be clear, I still shift under full power (street and dirt) but I use the clutch when I do.

FruDaddy · Mar 23, 2007

I used to use 3 or 4, depending in the situation, now I pretty much stick with 2. Some of it is pretty hard stuff, but not always. I ride a mildy modified 805cc v-twin.

HubertGarfunkleIII · Mar 23, 2007

when you are doing a wheelie and you shift gears should you use the clutch? i saw a video online saying dont use the clutch when you shift gears while doing a wheelie.

ILoveCake · Apr 14, 2007

High Lord Gomer said:
How many fingers were you using / how many now?

Clutching it up in 2nd on the FZ1 is what made me hold on with 3 and only use one for the clutch.

To be clear, I still shift under full power (street and dirt) but I use the clutch when I do.

Do you shift under full power when you are just riding for fun or just durring races?

High Lord Gomer · Apr 16, 2007

Whenever I am trying to get the most out of the bike, whether racing or just riding around, I shift under full power.

I did ride a friend's 2007 400EX this weekend and found that it would not shift under power. All the clutch in the world wouldn't help... I had to back off the throttle to get it to shift.

RMZRyder · Apr 16, 2007

FruDaddy said:
I hear that it is..

but I will back off the throttle to match gears.[/QUOTE]You aren't really matching gears, that is a whole different animal that truck drivers know well. You are just unloading them so that they will float (synchronize may be a better word) into each other more easily.[/QUOTE]I drive heavy duty trucks in the oil field and if the power is on you can not force it out of gear, you have to let off to shift, of course these machines have 1000 plus lbs of torque going through the transmission, without sincronization you will not sucessfully shift a large truck. IMO shifting anything without sincronization will eventually result in extensive repairs.

Racerboy · Apr 17, 2007

With your transmission I firmly believe you'll know if your damaging it. I have tried under full power with no clutch and its tough, I find it shifts much quicker and better if I stab the clutch quick. Downshifting I dont use the clutch, it goes buttery smooth and I dont believe i am causing premature failure. Upshifting if I let off for a split second she shifts buttery smooth without clutch so again I dont believe its hurting it. So for me, downshiftinf = no clutch, upshifting with letting off the gas = no clutch and upshifting under power I use the clutch.

DannyMoto07 · Apr 22, 2007

No one here has mentioned for cable-clutches that when you adjust the cable it works OPPOSITE from a brake cable... if you TIGHTEN the cable you will make the throw distance GREATER... if you LOOSEN the cable, you will bring the throw distance closer to the bars.

Basically you want your clutch to JUST START to grab once the lever leaves your knuckles... Also, if you use riding gloves make sure you wear them when you adjust the cable. The slightest difference in diameter of your fingers will make a ton of difference in the throw-out.

Good luck.

-Also, everything about the clutch is hard to justify unless you take 2 perfectly brand new bikes and ride them exactly the same only on 1 you clutch during shifts, and the other you dont... when you blow up the clutch in one, you know which way is the best way.

As long as you let off the gas when you switch gears, you're fine. It's called power shifting... you can do it in cars... i think it's also refered to "double clutching" by basically matching engine speed to the speed of the clutch you can simply slide it into another gear no problem. Use your head. If you're crusing, don't clutch.. if you're climbing, crawling, or zipping around... clutch it.

FruDaddy · Apr 22, 2007

DannyMoto07 said:
As long as you let off the gas when you switch gears, you're fine. It's called power shifting... you can do it in cars... i think it's also refered to "double clutching" by basically matching engine speed to the speed of the clutch you can simply slide it into another gear no problem. Use your head. If you're crusing, don't clutch.. if you're climbing, crawling, or zipping around... clutch it.

I think that you are wrong about calling it power shifting, but I'll let somebody else worry about it, the technique has already been covered anyway and the name doesn't matter.
Double clutching is pretty much a named description, you push the clutch, pull it out of gear, let the clutch out to get the input shaft back up to speed, push the clutch a second time, the put the trans in gear.
Matching the engine speed to the speed of the clutch is simple, just let go of the pedal, the clutch is the coupling. I think that you are trying to describe matching the speed of the input shaft to the speed of the output shaft, with a bias that is related to the gear in question. Basically, you have to make sure that the parts that are being connected are moving the same speed. The simplicity of this (especially if you are talking about cars) depends on many factors (my Honda is easy while my Nissan is very difficult) and it is called rev (or RPM) matching (which is another often mis-used term).

JD_MXRacer · Apr 22, 2007

wow i read that like 2x and still had no idea what you were talkin about. like putting all those big words and clutch like 10 times made it seem so confusing :coocoo:

FruDaddy · Apr 22, 2007

It doesn't matter, because most of it has little or nothing to do with dirt bikes, it was just a rebuttal to prior statements. If you feel like you actually need clarification, I can try to make it less confusing. Just tell me what part.

DannyMoto07 · Apr 22, 2007

Well, thanks for the explination FruDaddy... More or less what I was trying to point out.

Anyhoo... As I was saying on almost every Yamaha ATV I've owned... clutch and auto-clutch transmissions... you can shift them all the same once you get rolling... but, as with an auto-clutch transmission (like in a Beartracker 250) you CANNOT shift while on the gas, you will burn the hell out of the clutches.

Sorry if my terminology was incorrect... I was trying to be as layman and as easy-to-understand as possible...

Dan

High Lord Gomer · Apr 23, 2007

DannyMoto07 said:
As long as you let off the gas when you switch gears, you're fine. It's called power shifting

Exactly the opposite...NOT letting off the gas when shifting is called power shifting (shifting under power).

using the clutch

killerkx

HubertGarfunkleIII

FruDaddy

mbaird

FruDaddy

HubertGarfunkleIII

pradami

SteveinSpringHill

High Lord Gomer

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FruDaddy

High Lord Gomer

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FruDaddy

HubertGarfunkleIII

ILoveCake

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High Lord Gomer

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RMZRyder

Racerboy

DannyMoto07

FruDaddy

JD_MXRacer

FruDaddy

DannyMoto07

High Lord Gomer

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