What fuel to run in eg 144's

[whenfoxforks-ruled]

Well it may have been a pc pipe, and it just detonated a little, back in june. We were arguing? The best bet for a 2 stroke is 537, Xamax 2 stroke oil and a bottle of boost! 4 stroke, 324 and a bottle of boost. I have only tried a few ounces per gallon and could not believe the difference. Springtime I will report on the whole bottle, somewhere around 6 or 7 percent oxygenate. If you tell Dave what you want, he will tell you what is best! He will laugh at the mention of the so called race fuels, sorry. They do advertise a lot more!

 

[SpDyKen]

Wffr,
BTW, what college degrees did you earn?

 

[whenfoxforks-ruled]

I am glad I am not too smart to ask the ones who know.

 

[SpDyKen]

I am glad I am not too smart to ask the ones who know.

As am I. I do try to know the credentials of those whose advice I am considering.

You have been going on, for quite some time now, about the purported 'advantages' of Firepower fuels. If you want us to listen, and consider engaging in a constructive discussion of the pros and cons of this fuel; I for one would like to know why I should consider your point of view.

So, if I may, what qualifies you as an expert in this area?

Thank you. :nod: Ken W.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Bruce Clapham's experience in this case aside, Firepower fuels are excellent products and are my personal choice for fuels in my two-stroke and four-stroke bikes, as well as my small block Dodge.

Dave Redszus ( http://www.precisionautoresearch.com/ ) the distributor (and formulator) of Firepower is an amazing resource when you need tuning help, and he's as much fun to chat with as anyone I've ever met in racing. Dave is like an encyclopedia of internal combustion, data acquisition and chassis dynamics. His knowledge comes from years at the racetrack backed up by real science. Lunch with Dave is always an education.

There are lots of other great fuel products out there, but having Dave as a resource within driving distance makes this a no brainer for me.

As for me, I know when I'm out of my depth and will refrain from getting punched in the brain by trying to argue chemistry with Bruce. :)

 

[bclapham]

believe me Rich, i am not trying to bash these fuels, just the notion that the other fuels out there are "junk" and these fuels are infalable- its all about aplication.

For sure, i like the idea that firepower uses MTBE, thats great. I used to run the VP U2 when i lived in Cali (before they went to EtOH) and i am yet to find anything (bolt on parts, fuels, ) that gave such a dramatic performance increase.....was it MTBE the only component giving all that performance? i dont think so.

That said, I was very skeptical at the EtOH fuels, but ive run them and been pleasantly surprised. In fact, i was really happy since i get the sunoco GT-plus locally for just over $6.50 a gallon- for me supply(location) and price are a massive factor for choosing a fuel, especially since i try and run 4-30 min motos and easily get through 3-4 gals when i ride, and i dont have the time to be driving all over to get fuel for my bike.

so given that, when someone has a supply of VP C12 (it was the 2-stroke industry standard fuel for years) locally and someone insists that they need to get premium fuels and additives shipped half way accross the country then i just find that a little objectionable really.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

believe me Rich, i am not trying to bash these fuels, just the notion that the other fuels out there are "junk" and these fuels are infalable- its all about aplication.

Couldn't have said it better myself. :nod:

so given that, when someone has a supply of VP C12 (it was the 2-stroke industry standard fuel for years) locally and someone insists that they need to get premium fuels and additives shipped half way accross the country then i just find that a little objectionable really.

C12 is still a good fuel and for most will be easy to tune for most people. Still a much better choice than unreliable pump fuel.

As much as I like the MTBE based fuels we may in the not to distant future be forced to deal with ethanol as a replacement whether we like it or not. It's sad when science has to take a back seat to special interests. :(

 

[SpDyKen]

Thanks, Rich & Bruce, for your clarifications of this matter.

Myself, I use 'unacceptable,' 'OK,' 'good,' 'better,' and 'best,' as the classifications of fuel options I have. I base this on the information I can gather from people who have a better understanding of the fuel's chemistry and resultant combustion that will occur. I then factor in my intended purpose, and cost, along with the 'hassle,' (read "ambition,") factor I am willing to adhere to. I then decide just how I'm going to set up my engine, and what fuel I am going to run.

Your insight is greatly appreciated! :cool: Thank you, again, for your posts.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

For sure, i like the idea that firepower uses MTBE, thats great. I used to run the VP U2 when i lived in Cali (before they went to EtOH) and i am yet to find anything (bolt on parts, fuels, ) that gave such a dramatic performance increase.....was it MTBE the only component giving all that performance? i dont think so.

I'm sure that VP was using isoprene, or styrene some other oddball high energy components to gain the additional power in their Ultimate fuels. The weird deposits that come from the aging of the fuel and the general lack of stability when it sees air certainly points to something out of the ordinary going on. ;)

 

[holeshot]

Wffr,
BTW, what college degrees did you earn?

He got his learnin' from the school of hard knocks and pings. Just like most of us ..... ;)

 

[bclapham]

I'm sure that VP was using isoprene, or styrene some other oddball high energy components to gain the additional power in their Ultimate fuels. The weird deposits that come from the aging of the fuel and the general lack of stability when it sees air certainly points to something out of the ordinary going on. ;)

i concur, i also thought it was isoprene- certainly the odd smell that have suggests that.

as for styrene, maybe less likely since i didnt recognise that odour and ive spent a lot of time around styrene.

 

[whenfoxforks-ruled]

Rich, what is sunoco using for an oxygenate? Their percent leaves me to believe they are using ether. They do have a disclaimer that all their fuel contains alcohol.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Rich, what is sunoco using for an oxygenate? Their percent leaves me to believe they are using ether. They do have a disclaimer that all their fuel contains alcohol.

Fox - I'm not really sure. I haven't really kept up with the Sunoco stuff over the past year or so.

I'll see what I can find out. :cool:

 

[bclapham]

I was very skeptical at the EtOH fuels, but ive run them and been pleasantly surprised. In fact, i was really happy since i get the sunoco GT-plus

EtOH is shorthand for ethanol.

 

[whenfoxforks-ruled]

Bclap, how does sunoco only put a few percent oxygenate, similar to Bp products, yet the pagan fuels run 10 percent? I do not take a tape recorder with me when I see Dr. Dave, but he explains how they put high end distalates in and compensate by chugging in more oxygenate. Similar to pump fuels. Sunoco and bp are the refineries, not vp, torco and the rest. They by bulk barrels and make with mixing. I have never asked Dr. why the 324 is listed as a 2 stroke fuel, he just said do not use it because it does not have enough cooling properties, it will melt the piston. Good enough for me. No issues. The 537 holds its own against any fuel I have ever tried. Who else bothers mixing specific 2 and 4 stroke fuel? Firepower is the most basic fuel that I know of to purchase, no perfumes added. Aren't there issues involved when the home base mixers put ether and alcohol fuels together? I did find out about ether and lead, wow!

 

[bclapham]

how does sunoco only put a few percent oxygenate, similar to Bp products, yet the pagan fuels run 10 percent? I do not take a tape recorder with me when I see Dr. Dave, but he explains how they put high end distalates in and compensate by chugging in more oxygenate. Similar to pump fuels. Sunoco and bp are the refineries, not vp, torco and the rest. They by bulk barrels and make with mixing. I have never asked Dr. why the 324 is listed as a 2 stroke fuel, he just said do not use it because it does not have enough cooling properties, it will melt the piston. Good enough for me. No issues. The 537 holds its own against any fuel I have ever tried. Who else bothers mixing specific 2 and 4 stroke fuel? Firepower is the most basic fuel that I know of to purchase, no perfumes added. Aren't there issues involved when the home base mixers put ether and alcohol fuels together? I did find out about ether and lead, wow!

here is where you are getting really out of your depth, and one of the reasons you shouldnt be going all over the internet telling people what fuels they should run when you dont understand what you are talking about.

the % of oxygenation relates to the amount of oxygen atoms within the fuel- MTBE and EtOH arent oxygen atoms, they are molecules that contain oxygen and hydrocarbon- thus, you would have to add 10-30% volume MTBE or EtOH or MeOH to get 1-5% oxygenation.

as for putting in the high end distilates and getting performance back with oxygenates, yes, you see that with pump fuels that have end points over 350F, but i wouldnt class anything with an endpoint less than 260F as having high end distilates.

as for companies buying in barrels and mixing the fuel itself, this is no different than what refineries do, just a scale thing.

who else mixes 2 and 4 stroke fuels? thats just stupid, VP has so many different blends its untrue for everything from bikes to drag cars, U2 and U4 couldnt be any more specific could it?

perfume? are you kidding me? the strong smelling components are additives to make power and stabilize the fuels.

like i said, you shouldnt really come one here and start bashing products that you dont understand.

Rich, please close this thread- its a waste of bandwidth.

 

[SpDyKen]

here is where you are getting really out of your depth, and one of the reasons you shouldnt be going all over the internet telling people what fuels they should run when you dont understand what you are talking about. ............................................
........................................................

like i said, you shouldnt really come one here and start bashing products that you dont understand.

Rich, please close this thread- its a waste of bandwidth.

:laugh: :yikes: :rotfl: The "I'm not a Chemist, but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express, once" syndrome here, I believe!