what racing tells me about my next bike...

HajiWasAPunk · Dec 5, 2005

So I raced my CR125 for the first time Saturday. I rode in the 125 Beginner class and out of 7 bikes came in 6th and 7th.

I've been debating getting a 250F vs a 450F. This experience is pushing towards the 250F because it seems I'm not even riding that size bike hard enough yet. I pretty much only ride MX. Any other way to interpret my race result? I'm 5'8", 160lbs and seemed to be about the same size as everyone else in the race, though they were mostly 5-15 years younger.

edit: Just to clarify, my quesiton is does this tell me I should stick with the 125 class (meaning if I'm not riding that for all its worth [or even close] then why should I get the 450 even if it maybe more fun at times?). I'm not asking "Is the reason I didn't win because my bike's not new enough"?

dirt bike dave · Dec 5, 2005

I would say you need to concentrate on some practice drills to improve your riding, especially cornering & starts. Also, use your current bike to learn how to set up your suspension. Try a fresh set of tires, too, if yours are worn out.

You are probably going to improve your results even if you stay on your same bike, so I would not be in a big rush to buy a new one, unless you have money burning a hole in your pocket.

Rich Rohrich · Dec 5, 2005

HajiWasAPunk said:
I'm 5'8", 160lbs and seemed to be about the same size as everyone else in the race, though they were mostly 5-15 years younger.

..... yeah it MUST be the bike :rotfl:

Chili · Dec 5, 2005

HajiWasAPunk said:
Any other way to interpret my race result?

Yep, you need to practice.

HajiWasAPunk · Dec 5, 2005

sorry to give you guys the wrong impression, I'm not saying I didn't place better because of the bike! Let me clarify my question.

I meant I've been debating between getting a 250For 450F and am thinking because I'm not riding the 125 class bike hard enough, that I should stick with that class size (meaning get the 250F) and not even bother with a bike that I obviously would be using an even smaller fraction of the power.

I clearly need a ton more practice either way I go. But thanks Rich for your sarcasm, I needed a laugh after this weekend :laugh:

Rich Rohrich · Dec 5, 2005

It's a lot easier to LEARN to go fast on a 125 even if it's easier to GO FAST on a 250F. Something to think about ;)

Masterphil · Dec 5, 2005

Rich just nailed it! Your quickest path to getting faster will be on the 125. I'd give it a couple of years, take some Motoschools or private lessons. If you can ride a 125 well, a 250f or 450f won't be a problem.

HajiWasAPunk · Dec 5, 2005

Thanks for the advice. I've been going to MX class every Friday and plan to continue to do so. But I'm confused, everyone keeps telling me the 250f is easier to go fast on (easier to keep in the power, not as much shifting etc.)? Even the instructors have agreed with this, not withstanding rider ability.

What am I missing?

Masterphil · Dec 5, 2005

You're not mising anything. Almost any rider will be faster on a 250f vs a 125. The difference is, you will be a better rider if you learn to go fast on a 125. You will be much better at shifting and clutching than someone on a 250f that never learned to use a 125 like they were supposed to be used. The 250f's are easier to jump, corner, keep in the power. But a 125 will always be able to corner faster, turn quicker, and be more flickable in the air.

The reason why it's easier to learn to go fast on a 125 is because you have to. The only way to go fast on a 125 is to keep it pinned and have a high corner speed. It's more like the 125 teaches you. If you don't ride it super aggressively, you won't be fast. A 250f lets you get lazy and still allows you to go fast, but a 125 demands that you keep on it to go fast.

That's why I switched from a 426f to a 125. Now I'm forced to learn to do it right, or I'll just be slow forever.

HajiWasAPunk · Dec 5, 2005

Thanks for the explanation. Here's a couple of questions following up to that.

1. Why will the 125 corner faster?
2. You mentioned being better and using the clutch but don't you basically not even need to on the 250F? So far the only place I've been taught to use it on the 125 is taking off and occasionally coming out of a corner if you're out of the power slightly.

I guess this is turning into a Riding question instead of a bike one!
Thanks again.

Masterphil · Dec 5, 2005

1. Something about less rotating mass in the engine, and the COG is going to be lower, and the bike is lighter.
2. No, you don't really need to use the clutch much on the 250f, but if you don't learn how, you won't know how if you do need to. I have to use the clutch ALOT on the 125, but never did on the 426f. Anytime I want the power on, and it's not getting there fast enough, I hit the clutch. On a 125, unless you stay on the pipe, you're not making much power. You don't want bbwwwwaaaaaeeeeEEE, you want WEEEEEEEEEEE! Since you've only been riding for 4 months, It's not a big deal yet, you'll use the clutch more and more the faster you go.

Chili · Dec 5, 2005

The theory is the same reason my son is still on a 125, well that and I'm terrified to blow up a 4 stroke and have a $2500 rebuild bill I can't afford. Almost all instructors I talked to said the kid would be faster on a 250F but he'd be a lazier less skilled rider. The consensus was a season or two on the 2 stroke would make him a better rider down the road, then when he goes 4 stroke he's got superior skills and an equal bike.

This season one of his friends was really struggling with the suspension on his RMZ, since my son was hurt I offered them our 125 to ride for comparison sakes. The rider hit the track and couldn't jump anything out of a turn for a few laps because he couldn't keep the revs up. This same kid could do all those jumps a year prior on his 80.

Bottom line you will be faster on the 4 stroke, or you can learn to ride better and carry corner speed on the 2 stroke for now and then make the switch.

Sub · Dec 6, 2005

If you have only been riding 4 months I would not go get a new bike. I agree with the others, learn to make that 125 sing and you will be good to go. I'm picking up a ktm 200xc for the woods because the smaller bikes are just more fun to ride and I'm not a 4 stroke guy... current ride is a 250sx. A 125 turns better because it has less moving parts in the engine, it's piston is smaller, and it doesn't have valve train sitting up high on the engine to make the bike more top heavy. The bigger the bike, the more rotating mass, the more it wants to go straight. Physics.

nikki · Dec 7, 2005

I would get a 250F if you want to race in the 125 class and have a little more fun. You'll adapt fine. You don't need to clutch, you don't need to shift, it's great ;)

If you're older (like considering classes like +30 B eventually), then maybe consider a 250 2-stroke or 450F, once you feel that you can control the additional power (and bike weight). Not sure your current riding style, but if you ride irratic or out of control, stick with the 125/250F class. But in general, the 250 Beginner or 250C/Novice class is a little more mellow, less competitive, and "easier" than the young punk kids in the 125 Beginner or 125C/Novice class. Plus the 250 class is usually a little smaller. And if/when you're ready for the age classes, you'll find that 90% of the riders are on "big" bikes.

MXP1MP · Dec 7, 2005

Your racing the beginer class so realistically your bike your on is prefect! forget the 250F it's a non issue you'd be no faster on it than that 125 you got! Listen to what they are saying you need the SKILLS! A rider on a KX 60 with skills could beat you with your lack of skills and it wouldn't really matter what you was on.

The 125 will teach your those skills stay away from the 250F crutch b/s "thier easier to ride" it's a cop out i hear all to often anymore. I went from a 125 to a 250F and I was damn fast on my 125 and since it was a heavier bike with a higher center o gravity I was way slower on the 250F! When I sold it and got back on a 125 I was amazed out how lazy I had gotten. (I had the 250F for almost a year)

Besides my first race ever I got last place and I was on an old bike compared to almost everyone else but I didn't run out and buy a new one I concentrated on my skills and got faster and came back and beat them!

HajiWasAPunk · Dec 7, 2005

Thanks Nikki.

I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this, but I was asking more from the 450f vs 250f standpoint and not the 250f vs 125 2-stroke. If I'm not getting all I can out of a 125 class bike (not that most ppl are, but I've clearly got a lot of improving to do), then it seems wasteful to get a 450 and be even further behind the decent riders. But I don't understand the arguement against the 250f. What am I gaining by having to shift an extra gear or two and tap the clutch to get power? Yes it can be done (riding the 2-stroke as hard) but I think for an experienced person just looking to ride more consistently I'd be better off on the 250F?

I agree with the point that going back from a 4-stroke is tough, you do have to do more to keep the 2-stroke in the power.

ChopperDave · Dec 7, 2005

Rich Rohrich said:
..... yeah it MUST be the bike :rotfl:

Rich, LOL. Never one to pull punches!

HajiWasAPunk · Dec 7, 2005

MXP1MP said:
Your racing the beginer class so realistically your bike your on is prefect! forget the 250F it's a non issue you'd be no faster on it than that 125 you got! Listen to what they are saying you need the SKILLS! A rider on a KX 60 with skills could beat you with your lack of skills and it wouldn't really matter what you was on.

The 125 will teach your those skills stay away from the 250F crutch b/s "thier easier to ride" it's a cop out i hear all to often anymore. I went from a 125 to a 250F and I was damn fast on my 125 and since it was a heavier bike with a higher center o gravity I was way slower on the 250F! When I sold it and got back on a 125 I was amazed out how lazy I had gotten. (I had the 250F for almost a year)

Besides my first race ever I got last place and I was on an old bike compared to almost everyone else but I didn't run out and buy a new one I concentrated on my skills and got faster and came back and beat them!

I made my last post before reading this, but if you ride the 250F as hard as you ride the 125, aren't you faster on the 250? Why are they letting ppl bore out 125's now in the AMA? Crap, I'm confused and again I'm not blaming the bike. No matter what I need to be a better rider for sure.

Chili · Dec 7, 2005

To try to simplify. You will be faster on the 250F with equal riding ability. The point most are trying to make is the 250F will make you lazy and retard the development of your skills. The 125 2 stroke forces your skills to improve or you get left behind, the 250F will mask some of you inabilities as a rider. Bascially if your a vet racer lookinng for nothing more than fun you can't go wrong with the 4 stroke but if skill improvement is your primary goal you already own the perfect weapon for now.

HajiWasAPunk · Dec 7, 2005

Thanks Chilli, I guess I see the point.

What I'm left wondering now then is, at 33, how long should I give it before I just take the easier bike route? I'm not sure, but there don't seem to be many ppl who pick this sport up after 30? If I was 14 or 15, how long would you say to wait before going 4 stroke?

MXP1MP · Dec 7, 2005

Just forget the bike right now your 125 is putting out enough power to do what you want with it. Go out an practice and have fun! You did it for fun to start with now your getting fickle on us ask any pro why does he races most of the time cause it's fun!

Go practice and go have fun! Keep going to the track and you'll see after awhile when things click what we mean when you get better and start having fun!

If you want to waste money on your bike how bout just keeping it maintained for starters. Or maybe spend the cash on a ridding school after a bit find some motocross friends who will help teach ya :) The ones that are cruel enough to take your own bike an do that jump you won't just to show it's all you not bike. :p

Chili · Dec 7, 2005

HajiWasAPunk said:
T If I was 14 or 15, how long would you say to wait before going 4 stroke?

Our plan for my now 16 year old son was two seasons on the 125 or when I felt the bike was costing him results. We are now going into the third season but he only raced 5 times last season before breaking his femur. We likely would have put him on the 4 stroke this season if Suzuki had one Rich wouldn't kick my ass for buying :laugh: I am very dealer loyal and we have been patiently waiting for a new 250F from Zook or to see how the KTM's fair this season as our dealer sells both lines.

Masterphil · Dec 8, 2005

I am going to try to make myself ride the 125 exclusively for at least 2 years before I step up again. If I had to choose right now, I'd buy a 250sx, but in 2 years who knows what I want. I may choose to stay on a 125, if they are still in production.

Remember this, the better your skills are, the easier it is to ride fast. If you watch a pro race, I'll bet you that he isin't using near as much energy in a race as you are. The better you get, the less you have to fight the bike to make it do what you want, the more the bike works for you instead of against you. You'll look back on this in a few years and be glad that you kept the 125 for awhile longer.

mxpaint04 · Dec 13, 2005

I deffinetly agree with masterphil's explination about the 125 being a teacher bike but i disagree in one area if you rode/raced 80's as a kid you learned many of the same skills as you do by riding a 125. But there is no substitue to learning on a 125, my friend who races intermediate had two 125's and went to Mx classes for 2 years before he switched to a 250f...he told me later that all those times of gettin his a$$ served to him by all the 250fs in the 125 class made him all the more motivated to ride harder and better on his 125...now that he has a 250f he ripes!!! So just stick it out on ur 125 for a year or so more and reap the benifits of being an amazing 250f rider later.

HajiWasAPunk · Dec 13, 2005

I appreciate everyone's thoughts and comments. And I learned something from the debate.
That said, the orignal question wasn't 125 vs 250f, it was 250f vs 450f!
At 33, I don't know how long I'll be able to ride agressively on an MX track.
Last weekend, and there was a kid on a new 250f. We'd go into the corners with me trailing by 3 or more bike lengths. We'd come out with me trailing by 1 bike length. As soon as he got on the pipe in the straight aways he'd pull away from me again. Now I'm not saying I'm riding the 125 like Bubba or something, but clearly you're at a disadvantage on a 250f and there is only about 5lbs different in the bikes. After talking to my riding instructors, they agreed you can ride either bike below potential.

Thanks again for the comments and advice. I'm picking up my new 250f tomorrow. Not because I hope the bike will make me a better rider, but because I can afford it and they're easier to ride faster. See ya'll at the track!

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