Will The 2 Stroke Return?

2004 cr500af · Jan 16, 2009

I love owning a 2 stroke and was curious to see what you guys think. I know that our choices are limited but do you think the 2 stroke will ever make a return? I owned a CRF and found that for the average person such as myself. That the bike was just to much money to keep up. Anyways lets here what you think. Will history repeat itself?

gwcrim · Jan 16, 2009

You mean they ever left? I have, oh..... 8 of them at my house now. Only one is a street bike.

You can have my two strokes when you pry them from my cold, dead, spooge covered hands.

ws6transam · Jan 16, 2009

1) Emissions. The 4-stroke is cleaner. The government and EPA like them, and emissions controls legislation are written to give 4-strokes the edge.
2) Efficiency. The 4-stroke uses less fuel than a two-stroke, in most cases.
3) Performance. "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday." Until 2-strokes begin winning a significant number of races, they will not get good press coverage by the media. 4-stroke engines still appear to be easier to ride quickly than two-stroke bikes, even though two-stroke bikes are probably more powerful overall.

So, in order to regain their place in the market, 2-stroke engines will need not only reliability, but also will need a broader power band that is easier to handle, plus they will need to be more efficient with fuel, and will need to be more emissions friendly.

That said, I still like two-stroke bikes & love the sound. It's sort of like the difference between the sound of a Ferrari V8 versus a Ford Powerstroke diesel V8. They both get the job done but which one sounds sexier?

ericz103 · Jan 16, 2009

a ferrari fo sho... no contest

SMMWest · Jan 16, 2009

More then the Emission issue. The 4-Stroke is a big money maker for the Big Four Manufactures. Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki and Yamaha make more per Motorcycle and way way way way more per rebuild with the 4-Strokes. Trust me if everyone boycotted next year and didn't purchase a single 4-Stroke and sent around a Petition to the Big Four Manufactures the 2-Strokes in the USA would be back the following year.

Regardless they will come back around in time. The 4-Strokes were big back in the old days and then the little 2-Strokes came buzzing in and the Manufactures jumped on that because they were so cheap for them to make. Everything in life comes around full circle and the Motocross industry is no different.

Myself I will only ride the 2-Strokes. As a matter of fact I went out and got an "OLD" 1985 Honda CR125 that I am racing in the 250cc 4-Stroke Intermediate Class for 2009!

I have a degrees in Public Relations and Business Marketing and I am telling you straight up, it is all about the dollar for the Japanese Manufactures. Look at KTM they still got the 2-Strokes.

Rich Rohrich · Jan 16, 2009

SMMWest said:
Trust me if everyone boycotted next year and didn't purchase a single 4-Stroke and sent around a Petition to the Big Four Manufactures the 2-Strokes in the USA would be back the following year.

There seems to be a tiny glitch in your theory.

People already did basically that, only it was two-strokes that
sat unsold on dealer floors and OEM warehouses over the last few years. The market sent a fairly clear message. Their interest in two-strokes is diminishing at a rate that makes them bad business.

If people cared about saving two-strokes they had plenty of time to buy them at ever increasing discounts (compared to four-strokes) over the last 10 years.

The simple reality is they didn't buy enough of them to support their production from the major manufacturers, and now it makes good business sense to move on. Don't forget folks it's the motorcycle business to the OEMs, especially in tough economic times.

Many years ago while dealing with a customer who couldn't grasp a similar concept Vic Krause coined the famous phrase, "make it happen with MONEY". Thirty years later it still rings true. If you don't buy them, they'll be gone. Just look at the Japanese trials bike market for a quick refresher course in supply and demand realities.

At some point as sales fall off even the small Euro companies will have to decide what is best for the business, and it might not be the decision you guys are hoping for.

XRpredator · Jan 16, 2009

Rich Rohrich said:
. . . At some point as sales fall off even the small Euro companies will have to decide what is best for the business, and it might not be the decision you guys are hoping for.

That's right, Luddites. Welcome to the FUTURE!!! :p

James · Jan 16, 2009

Rich Rohrich said:
If people cared about saving two-strokes they had plenty of time to buy them at ever increasing discounts (compared to four-strokes) over the last 10 years.

The simple reality is they didn't buy enough of them to support their production from the major manufacturers, and now it makes good business sense to move on.

Sorry, I could only afford 4 of them and now I am committed to riding 2 strokes forever even though I'd probably prefer a 4 stroke :nener:

Seriously though, I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing one/some of the big 5 exit the dirt bike market in the near future. 2s or 4s, I think we have passed the peak of the off road motorcycle market.

Rich Rohrich · Jan 16, 2009

James said:
Seriously though, I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing one/some of the big 5 exit the dirt bike market in the near future. 2s or 4s, I think we have passed the peak of the off road motorcycle market.

I'm surprised they have invested as much money as they have up to this point. The next few years should clear out a lot of the deadwood and make things much clearer.

XRpredator · Jan 16, 2009

Honestly, that was said back when I first got out of the dirt bike market back in around 84-85. Dirt bikes were dead. 4-wheelers were just coming into the market and about to explode, then dirt bikes came back in a big way. Maybe we'll see a lull in the market, but like everything else, it's cyclical.

hell, it's motorcyclical!

James · Jan 16, 2009

I think the population sprawl/available land/enviromentalism/litigation situation is much different now than it was in 84. I would like to be optimistic about it but I don't think those factors are likely to cycle back the other way.

BSWIFT · Jan 16, 2009

3) Performance. "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday." Until 2-strokes begin winning a significant number of races, they will not get good press coverage by the media. 4-stroke engines still appear to be easier to ride quickly than two-stroke bikes, even though two-stroke bikes are probably more powerful overall.

The displacement advantage took care of that. The two strokes will survive because you have one and continue to maintain it. Don't be looking for great advances, probably just isn't going to happen.
Rich has probably forgotten more about engines than I've ever known so I won't attempt to challenge him.;) As the thumpers lean down on their weight, the two strokes will all but disappear regardless of maintenance cost. I haven't riden the latest FI thumpers yet but if it works as good as the reviews are coming in, the only thing left to grumble about is the noise(aka sound level).
If you have a few million$ around, get yourself a CNC machine and a bunch of billit aluminum and design away. For some more millions, buy yourself a foundry and "cast away".:joking:

Matt90GT · Jan 16, 2009

Yes the displacement advantage has caused the 4strokes to become more popular for sure since 04 - or about that year for a turning point.

For emissions, the 2 stroke can be made to be 90% cleaner at idle than a 4 stroke. You just have to look at the marine industry for proof of that - Evenrude Etec motors. question is will the AMA allow those kind of advancements in the 2 strokes while they allow EFI on the 4 strokes???!??

But for sure if 2 strokes come back from the manufacturer's they will be very high tech and have lots of high tech parts - read $$$ to fix just like the 4 stroke EFI system. The simple days of carbs and mechanical power valves may just be left to the few 85cc bikes still sold these days in the next few years.

I still wonder what happened to the theory of KISS with MX bikes? who wants to troubleshoot a fuel pump or TPS sensor when you are at the track trying to get the bike started????

Tom68 · Jan 17, 2009

James said:
I think the population sprawl/available land/enviromentalism/litigation situation is much different now than it was in 84. I would like to be optimistic about it but I don't think those factors are likely to cycle back the other way.

Wasn't any different in '84 grab some old mag's and you'll see what I mean. Biggest problem for 2 strokes is how good the 4 strokes are now.

Rich Rohrich · Jan 17, 2009

Tom68 said:
Wasn't any different in '84 grab some old mag's and you'll see what I mean.

I was looking at a copy of Cycle from 1970 the other night with a 3 page editorial about losing land to sound and people moving out away from bigger cities. The more things change ... :nod:

The double displacement argument doesn't explain the lack of floor sales for two-strokes. Only a tiny percentage of the MX bikes sold ever end up in sanctioned competition with displacement rules.

Like Tom pointed out, it's much more simple. There are enough people who find four-strokes more fun to ride to make the increased costs worth it, and the sales numbers reflect that.

It would be a shame if new two-strokes were to disappear from the sales floor at some point, but I know the six I still own will be around for a long time to come. ;)

2-Strokes 4-ever · Jan 17, 2009

Will it return?
In a "consumers spending money" economy, where we're buying new bikes every year or two, I think... no. We weren't buying 2-strokes when the economy WAS "good."
However, things are tight right now (at least in my house) and the bike I now own is the only option. Hopefully 2-stroke parts will be around for a while.
I'm thinking we are not going to see too much $ put into R&D until money free's up some... 4t or 2t.
*Exclude Service Honda* :cool:

whenfoxforks-ruled · Jan 17, 2009

Will the 2 stroke return to how it was, no. Pneumatic valve train 4 strokes or electric will be the next BIG thing.

2-Strokes 4-ever · Jan 17, 2009

I love you 2-strokes...but 4 strokes may be better for me. :)

oldguy · Jan 17, 2009

A 2 stroke is returning to my garage this year.
My son still has his 4 stroke racers but I figure at my ability level and lack of speed I can not justify the cost of four stroke maintanence. Of course I have Eric Gorr's shop only 20 minutes down the road and that big bore stroker are starting to call out pretty loud

2-Strokes 4-ever · Jan 17, 2009

2-Strokes 4-ever said:
I love you 2-strokes...but 4 strokes may be better for me. :)

Ummm
This was my wife's comment. I suppose that's what I get for downsizing my reply rather than closing it.
Motorcycles are the farthest thing from my mind right now...she loves me, and based on her above statement, I have other stuff on my mind ;)
Jealous?

sharky243 · Jan 17, 2009

The true reason that 2-strokes are being phased out, is because of emissions. The rules are getting tougher for the manufacturers to be able to keep building them. EPA and CARB are trying to get 2-strokes completely baned because they don't run clean enough to meet their rules. As far as media coverage, the manufacturers tell the factory sponsored teams what bikes they are to ride, and that is why you see 90% 4-strokes in the races. The only 2-strokes you still see are usually just privateers who are mostly riding on their own buck. I too still love 2-strokes, and will always ride one. I also have a thumper, and to compare the two of them, I think the 2-stroke is a funner ride, because you have to work a bit more to ride one. 4-strokes tend to be a bit easier to ride, and I find myself getting "lazy" on the thumper and not having as much fun. Having said that, I love them both.

tweek49 · Jan 17, 2009

They'll never be "gone" unless everybody just takes there prts in for scrap... but I doubt that.

Even if they do go away.... turn to good ol' Service Honda!

whenfoxforks-ruled · Jan 17, 2009

oldguy said:
A 2 stroke is returning to my garage this year.
My son still has his 4 stroke racers but I figure at my ability level and lack of speed I can not justify the cost of four stroke maintanence. Of course I have Eric Gorr's shop only 20 minutes down the road and that big bore stroker are starting to call out pretty loud

I would still like to see a geezer 125 class.

flyingfuzzball · Jan 17, 2009

sharky243 said:
The true reason that 2-strokes are being phased out, is because of emissions.

you are aware that the modern race 4T's fail the epa's tests too right?

whenfoxforks-ruled · Jan 17, 2009

Why do we still get this epa bs argument? COMPETITION MOTORCYCLES FOR USE ON AN ENCLOSED COURSE ARE EXCLUDED! No?

Will The 2 Stroke Return?

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