Reesknight
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- Oct 31, 2002
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I bet the new AMA rules changes are gonna boost you're sales or hopefully it will. Now when a two stroke pulls up next to a 450F, the 450F rider is gonna get real nervous! :whoa:
2007 Kx500af
- Thread starter AJ Waggoner
- Start date
roosteater
~SPONSOR~
- Dec 27, 1999
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It goes without saying, but AJ is making some seriously insane bikes. Definitely art.
AJ Waggoner
Crash Test Dummy
- Nov 5, 1999
- 4,368
- 34
- Thread starter
- #104
thanks all!
on the digital stuff , for the CR500
it is preset.
we tested variuos maps ,that one was what we felt was the best overall and went with..it really makes the 500 a great all around bike.
and we are working on one for the KX500.
it's possible i'll offer one in the future that the rider could select between a couple
of good maps
on the digital stuff , for the CR500
it is preset.
we tested variuos maps ,that one was what we felt was the best overall and went with..it really makes the 500 a great all around bike.
and we are working on one for the KX500.
it's possible i'll offer one in the future that the rider could select between a couple
of good maps
AJ,
I guess I'm a bit confused. I read the data on the SH web site and it talks about how great and smooth it makes the 500. I have to admit that I thought my AF was dialed in perfect. It never died, it started very easy, it idled smooth and a twist of the grip was always answered with instant response. The plug lasted forever, fouling was never a concern. I did follow EG's advice and run a projected tip and of course jet the bike for my area. Perhaps the Mo-Better port job smoothed out the crazy hit these engines used to have. Right now I'm putting together the cash for another AF. I guess I'm looking forward to the new ignition.
It is better for sure right???
Is it butt tested or actual data, numbers would be nice???
If I recall your site said it fires 3 times per revolution. I'm assuming that it fires those sparks like a MSD, 3 in a row for complete combustion???
Thanks,
Mark
I guess I'm a bit confused. I read the data on the SH web site and it talks about how great and smooth it makes the 500. I have to admit that I thought my AF was dialed in perfect. It never died, it started very easy, it idled smooth and a twist of the grip was always answered with instant response. The plug lasted forever, fouling was never a concern. I did follow EG's advice and run a projected tip and of course jet the bike for my area. Perhaps the Mo-Better port job smoothed out the crazy hit these engines used to have. Right now I'm putting together the cash for another AF. I guess I'm looking forward to the new ignition.
It is better for sure right???
Is it butt tested or actual data, numbers would be nice???
If I recall your site said it fires 3 times per revolution. I'm assuming that it fires those sparks like a MSD, 3 in a row for complete combustion???
Thanks,
Mark
kx500af build
AJ,
I have been drooling over your 500af's for years, but could never afford one. Being a poor but educated college student i decided to build my own. I recently bought a 06 kx250f with a blown engine and have begun to stuff my 98 kx500 engine into it. I currently have the engine sitting sitting in the cut 250f with the swingarm bolt inserted. I have a few questions I would appreciate you answering.
Frame: where did you cut your frame, and how did you mount the upper motor mount.
Pipe: I have a zip-tye fmf gnarly pipe that i am currently modifying. Are you using a cr500 Silencer on your bikes? Also would i be able to purchase one of your pipes?
Radiators: Is it better/easier to use the fourstroke radiators? or the stock kx500 ones?
airbox: Are you using the stock 450f airbox? Or did you drill it out and run the kx500 filter?
Also, do you foresee any issues in me using a kx250f frame versus a kx450f frame? I'm curious as why you chose the 450. Don't you use a 250f frame for the cr500af?
Thanks, Jake
AJ,
I have been drooling over your 500af's for years, but could never afford one. Being a poor but educated college student i decided to build my own. I recently bought a 06 kx250f with a blown engine and have begun to stuff my 98 kx500 engine into it. I currently have the engine sitting sitting in the cut 250f with the swingarm bolt inserted. I have a few questions I would appreciate you answering.
Frame: where did you cut your frame, and how did you mount the upper motor mount.
Pipe: I have a zip-tye fmf gnarly pipe that i am currently modifying. Are you using a cr500 Silencer on your bikes? Also would i be able to purchase one of your pipes?
Radiators: Is it better/easier to use the fourstroke radiators? or the stock kx500 ones?
airbox: Are you using the stock 450f airbox? Or did you drill it out and run the kx500 filter?
Also, do you foresee any issues in me using a kx250f frame versus a kx450f frame? I'm curious as why you chose the 450. Don't you use a 250f frame for the cr500af?
Thanks, Jake
AJ Waggoner
Crash Test Dummy
- Nov 5, 1999
- 4,368
- 34
- Thread starter
- #107
bigredAF-
Mark,
likely your AF is dailed perfectly?
..nothing wrong with the stock oem ignition,, rode
them all my life. grea tbikes! (i am biased afterall? lol)
i like it better ,so do most people ,
just because OEM is good ,and performs fine ,
doesnt mean it cant be improved on,
the older OEM analog stuff, is just that ,older and *dated*.
all the new CR or CRFs have had digital CDI's for quite some time.
Developing digital
for the CR500 was not worth the investment to Honda, but you can bet if they
still made the bike ,it would have it.
it runs cleaner,and runs better down low.
both!! of course..
,but what numbers would you like to see?
the dyno chart simply looks identicle ,because we closely mapped it to the old school analog.intentionally, as its a good all around map fo rthat engin eand typica lriding.
the dyno is a good useful tool to give a reference point..
but its actual charts and numbers don't typically show the complete picture?
if i post a graph you would likely not be able to distingush bewteen the two igintions ,perhaps you could see a slight increase in low end on the digital,and a bit more on top.
if you ride two bikes back to back,you could VERY easily tell which was which.
and even though on a dyno they look identicle,and produce almost identcle hp numbers..
they deliver that power differently,
while still a big bore 500 2 stroke ,so of course similar-
it is a differecne easily felt.
if you did lap times it would likely become even more obvious,as you can turn consitantly faster laps with the digital system.
yes like MSD..it is vitually at the some timing point..
if a stock spark duration is a given lenght of time,,you can have 3 seperate ones during that same duration, or increase the duration time as well.
The bottom line with this?
if you are completely happy with your bike as it is set
up now..
and just wanting to get a newer bike,
that is set up the same,
then no need to go looking for improvements?
to anyone buying a new AF, i would recommend the digital though for sure.
This system was started out as a design to get a really good lighting set up.. for the 500AFX version,,
and we decided while doing this we might as well upgrade the CDI ,to the latest type, as it has some advantages.
it was a lot more of an adavantge that i thought it would be, and in my own riding experience certainly worth it.
KXjake-
sounds like a cool project!
Sorry-
I really cant outline how i make the bikes,
or any details?
additionally since i do use the 450 chassis,
where i cut that frame .
would not be relevent to where i would cut a 250f chassis? ;)
.png "=) =)")
i would really like to build a pool at my house,,but i likely wont call the local pool contractor and ask him how he does it,wha i should use, and what is the best way..or can i buy his parts..etc etc
I'd also like to fix the trans on my truck , and save some bucks doing it myself..
but calling a local transmission place and asking the mechanic to guide me thru it,
as i just cant afford , or dont want to pay him to do it..
probably isnt going to work out for me?
i'm not trying to be rude,,just explianing realities.
I work for a company..
few companies would have thier employees outline thier product deveolpment ,or any details not readily availble in the specifications of that product, in an open internet forum.. ;)
I can answer questions on the specs of the bike?
but not discussing the hows ,whys, how to's
That said: i could sell you a pipe and silencer.
they are desiged specifically for our KX500AF bike.,
and i could in noway tell you that they would fit your finshed project.
modifications would likely be needed.
Mark,
likely your AF is dailed perfectly?
..nothing wrong with the stock oem ignition,, rode
them all my life. grea tbikes! (i am biased afterall? lol)
i like it better ,so do most people ,
just because OEM is good ,and performs fine ,
doesnt mean it cant be improved on,
the older OEM analog stuff, is just that ,older and *dated*.
all the new CR or CRFs have had digital CDI's for quite some time.
Developing digital
for the CR500 was not worth the investment to Honda, but you can bet if they
still made the bike ,it would have it.
it runs cleaner,and runs better down low.
both!! of course..
,but what numbers would you like to see?
the dyno chart simply looks identicle ,because we closely mapped it to the old school analog.intentionally, as its a good all around map fo rthat engin eand typica lriding.
the dyno is a good useful tool to give a reference point..
but its actual charts and numbers don't typically show the complete picture?
if i post a graph you would likely not be able to distingush bewteen the two igintions ,perhaps you could see a slight increase in low end on the digital,and a bit more on top.
if you ride two bikes back to back,you could VERY easily tell which was which.
and even though on a dyno they look identicle,and produce almost identcle hp numbers..
they deliver that power differently,
while still a big bore 500 2 stroke ,so of course similar-
it is a differecne easily felt.
if you did lap times it would likely become even more obvious,as you can turn consitantly faster laps with the digital system.
yes like MSD..it is vitually at the some timing point..
if a stock spark duration is a given lenght of time,,you can have 3 seperate ones during that same duration, or increase the duration time as well.
The bottom line with this?
if you are completely happy with your bike as it is set
up now..
and just wanting to get a newer bike,
that is set up the same,
then no need to go looking for improvements?
to anyone buying a new AF, i would recommend the digital though for sure.
This system was started out as a design to get a really good lighting set up.. for the 500AFX version,,
and we decided while doing this we might as well upgrade the CDI ,to the latest type, as it has some advantages.
it was a lot more of an adavantge that i thought it would be, and in my own riding experience certainly worth it.
KXjake-
sounds like a cool project!
Sorry-
I really cant outline how i make the bikes,
or any details?
additionally since i do use the 450 chassis,
where i cut that frame .
would not be relevent to where i would cut a 250f chassis? ;)
i would really like to build a pool at my house,,but i likely wont call the local pool contractor and ask him how he does it,wha i should use, and what is the best way..or can i buy his parts..etc etcI'd also like to fix the trans on my truck , and save some bucks doing it myself..
but calling a local transmission place and asking the mechanic to guide me thru it,
as i just cant afford , or dont want to pay him to do it..
probably isnt going to work out for me?
i'm not trying to be rude,,just explianing realities.
I work for a company..
few companies would have thier employees outline thier product deveolpment ,or any details not readily availble in the specifications of that product, in an open internet forum.. ;)
I can answer questions on the specs of the bike?
but not discussing the hows ,whys, how to's
That said: i could sell you a pipe and silencer.
they are desiged specifically for our KX500AF bike.,
and i could in noway tell you that they would fit your finshed project.
modifications would likely be needed.
AJ,
Perfect response to my questions, every item covered.
I was thinking if the digital system had any gains over OEM it would most likely be torque from an improved spark and duration event. More curves in 300 rpm increments as your site references explains the cleaner off idle response for out of the crate jetting.
Thanks for the detailed response and ditto on the building specs for the KX project.
One more question...
Do you run the same plug with the upgraded ignition?
MM
Perfect response to my questions, every item covered.
I was thinking if the digital system had any gains over OEM it would most likely be torque from an improved spark and duration event. More curves in 300 rpm increments as your site references explains the cleaner off idle response for out of the crate jetting.
Thanks for the detailed response and ditto on the building specs for the KX project.
One more question...
Do you run the same plug with the upgraded ignition?
MM
- Aug 2, 2000
- 13,510
- 19
he said it far more diplomatically than I would have, and I'm glad I did not respond to the KX kid.truespode said:
well said, AJ
I love you
AJ Waggoner
Crash Test Dummy
- Nov 5, 1999
- 4,368
- 34
- Thread starter
- #112
BigRedAF-
I do highly recmmend the Iridium plugs with the new ignition,
and for that matter with the stock stuff as well
we run the regular size plugs as well as the "shorty versions"
the NGK - BR8ECMIX is a shortie iridium
Just so you know ,when ordering a new 07/08AFX, it comes with digital ignition stock
(for the lighting coil)
If ordering a 07/08 500AF - we can trade u out for the value diffrence between the stock stuff.
If a customer wants to do that.
some add it as an installed option,
but want to keep the stock stuff as well -
so then of course its just the regular price for that digi ignition option.
I do highly recmmend the Iridium plugs with the new ignition,
and for that matter with the stock stuff as well
we run the regular size plugs as well as the "shorty versions"
the NGK - BR8ECMIX is a shortie iridium
Just so you know ,when ordering a new 07/08AFX, it comes with digital ignition stock
(for the lighting coil)
If ordering a 07/08 500AF - we can trade u out for the value diffrence between the stock stuff.
If a customer wants to do that.
some add it as an installed option,
but want to keep the stock stuff as well -
so then of course its just the regular price for that digi ignition option.
AJ,
I apologize, I am new to the whole blog thing. I thought the whole idea of a forum was a free flow of ideas, where one guy could help another.
Having a business degree myself, I understand that you are working for a company and would not want to give away your so called "secrets".
Nevertheless this is not that difficult of a project for a decent fabricator. The information for building these bikes is already out there. Take the kxriders website for instance, they have an illustrated kx500af step by step how to guide.
I can build this bike myself, I just figured I'd ask the seasoned veteran if he had any advice for a fellow 500 enthusiast.
Sorry if I overstepped my bounds. I am a big fan of your work, and really appreciate your replies.
Thanks,
The kx kid (A 6'4" 195 lbs kid that is)
P.S. I know a good tranny guy that would let you pick his brain if you would like....
I apologize, I am new to the whole blog thing. I thought the whole idea of a forum was a free flow of ideas, where one guy could help another.
Having a business degree myself, I understand that you are working for a company and would not want to give away your so called "secrets".
Nevertheless this is not that difficult of a project for a decent fabricator. The information for building these bikes is already out there. Take the kxriders website for instance, they have an illustrated kx500af step by step how to guide.
I can build this bike myself, I just figured I'd ask the seasoned veteran if he had any advice for a fellow 500 enthusiast.
Sorry if I overstepped my bounds. I am a big fan of your work, and really appreciate your replies.
Thanks,
The kx kid (A 6'4" 195 lbs kid that is)
P.S. I know a good tranny guy that would let you pick his brain if you would like....
Considering a 08AF skip the X part...
It's my understanding from Gregg that it's still digital but no lighting coil, is that correct?
Since I haven't followed the evolution as I should have, is the 07' equipped with the steering damper too or is that a 08' only feature?
Gregg mentioned that the 08 AF is going to be $500.00 more than the 07? The CRF250 is only $100.00 difference between 07-08. Is there some other increase in manufacturing or just time to bump the margin?
Talk to you guys soon.
It's my understanding from Gregg that it's still digital but no lighting coil, is that correct?
Since I haven't followed the evolution as I should have, is the 07' equipped with the steering damper too or is that a 08' only feature?
Gregg mentioned that the 08 AF is going to be $500.00 more than the 07? The CRF250 is only $100.00 difference between 07-08. Is there some other increase in manufacturing or just time to bump the margin?
Talk to you guys soon.
Last edited:
AJ Waggoner
Crash Test Dummy
- Nov 5, 1999
- 4,368
- 34
- Thread starter
- #115
Kxjake-
I understand where yo uyare comin gfrom,,
but doubt any of us know of a business that would allow a free flow of thier
product ideas from an employee..
normally grounds for termination,
regargless if the info was somwhere out there on the net..
i help where i can , like offering the pipe
(keep in mind the up front costs is thousands just to have FMF look in making them ,then minimum orders come into play..
a one off pipe is in the 5 k to 10 K range from PC or FMF.)
you dint step over the lines, as its no harm to ask..
, i just statred the boundries for myself ,and for SH.
Big Red aF-
the digital ignition aleways has lighting coil as well.
it was all developed as one stator/rotor CDI set up..
the pieces cannot be seperated or work with the OEM stuff (analog and digi just dont mix in this case)
the lighting coil part of the stator ,can remain unused,and simply taped off,
or hooked up at anytime in the future.
The 08's are the first Honda models with the steering damper.
The 07 CR500AF price, while i still have them
is $8999.00
the 08 is $9499.00
our 07 models are based on what is availble,,
05 thru 07..
as they are the same bike once finshed up as a 500AF.
06's and 07's CRF250R's were hard for us to come by, in quantity,
while there were hundreds of 05s availble ,
and allowed us to keep the cost from increasing since 05.
The new 08 reflects new model , and pricing,
and its somewhat limited availbilty to us
(in quantity)
I understand where yo uyare comin gfrom,,
but doubt any of us know of a business that would allow a free flow of thier
product ideas from an employee..
normally grounds for termination,
regargless if the info was somwhere out there on the net..
i help where i can , like offering the pipe
(keep in mind the up front costs is thousands just to have FMF look in making them ,then minimum orders come into play..
a one off pipe is in the 5 k to 10 K range from PC or FMF.)
you dint step over the lines, as its no harm to ask..
, i just statred the boundries for myself ,and for SH.
Big Red aF-
the digital ignition aleways has lighting coil as well.
it was all developed as one stator/rotor CDI set up..
the pieces cannot be seperated or work with the OEM stuff (analog and digi just dont mix in this case)
the lighting coil part of the stator ,can remain unused,and simply taped off,
or hooked up at anytime in the future.
The 08's are the first Honda models with the steering damper.
The 07 CR500AF price, while i still have them
is $8999.00
the 08 is $9499.00
our 07 models are based on what is availble,,
05 thru 07..
as they are the same bike once finshed up as a 500AF.
06's and 07's CRF250R's were hard for us to come by, in quantity,
while there were hundreds of 05s availble ,
and allowed us to keep the cost from increasing since 05.
The new 08 reflects new model , and pricing,
and its somewhat limited availbilty to us
(in quantity)
Last edited:
AJ Waggoner
Crash Test Dummy
- Nov 5, 1999
- 4,368
- 34
- Thread starter
- #118
Bill! LOL
well that bored out 250 does seem like a lifetime ago.
Your CR500 was indeed the first true *open bike* i ever rode or raced.. :)
Mark-
sorry that was a typo..
I have used the CRF250R and CRF250X chassis for all our 05 thru 08 500AF , and 500AFX models
(i did use the CR250 chassis, from 98 thru 04 ,and even some CR125 chassis for the Limited edition models in 04 )
well that bored out 250 does seem like a lifetime ago.
Your CR500 was indeed the first true *open bike* i ever rode or raced.. :)
Mark-
sorry that was a typo..
I have used the CRF250R and CRF250X chassis for all our 05 thru 08 500AF , and 500AFX models
(i did use the CR250 chassis, from 98 thru 04 ,and even some CR125 chassis for the Limited edition models in 04 )
AJ Waggoner
Crash Test Dummy
- Nov 5, 1999
- 4,368
- 34
- Thread starter
- #120
Th ehonda frames go in generations
1st generation 97-99 Cr250 98-99 Cr125
2nd 00-01 Cr250
3rd 02-08 Cr250 /cr125
4th 04-08 CRF250
so I progess the 500AF along with each truly new chassis generation from Honda..
afterall the whole idea of the AF is to get the engine, in the latest chassis desgn.
for example:
if I stayed with the CR250 chasis i was using,, todays 08 Cr500AF would be the same as the 02 Cr500AF.
plus i knew Honda was eventually dropping the bike anyway (cr250)
as far as the CRF450 ,when it cam e out in 02,
it was still fundamentally a 3rd generation honda chassis -
and certainly not an update to the 02 Cr250 chassis,
,so i did not want to go there.
the CRF250 was truly new and improved so made sense.
(now the newwr CRf450's are in a 4th generation,but no need for me to go there since the CRF250 /based cr500AF is developed and already known to be a great handling bike)
1st generation 97-99 Cr250 98-99 Cr125
2nd 00-01 Cr250
3rd 02-08 Cr250 /cr125
4th 04-08 CRF250
so I progess the 500AF along with each truly new chassis generation from Honda..
afterall the whole idea of the AF is to get the engine, in the latest chassis desgn.
for example:
if I stayed with the CR250 chasis i was using,, todays 08 Cr500AF would be the same as the 02 Cr500AF.
plus i knew Honda was eventually dropping the bike anyway (cr250)
as far as the CRF450 ,when it cam e out in 02,
it was still fundamentally a 3rd generation honda chassis -
and certainly not an update to the 02 Cr250 chassis,
,so i did not want to go there.
the CRF250 was truly new and improved so made sense.
(now the newwr CRf450's are in a 4th generation,but no need for me to go there since the CRF250 /based cr500AF is developed and already known to be a great handling bike)
AJ, is a KX500AF doable in a newer 125 frame?
He hasn't signed onto DRN in 11 months, so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a reply. ;)
