'99 380 cuts out at high RPM after new top end

[burtlamborn]

Ok, I'm looking for some brainstorming ideas. I have a '99 380 which I've had since it was new. This winter I decided to replace the piston and rings. It still ran really well, but after two years I figured I'd pull it apart and see what things looked like. Things looked pretty good: one ring end gap was 0.013", the other was 0.019". (Spec is 0.012 to 0.015".) I replaced the piston and rings with Wiseco.

Ever since replacing the piston and rings, it has run poorly at high rpm and doesn't rev out as far as it used to. Can anybody shed some light on this? Hear are my thoughts:

Jetting: I don't thing it's related to jetting. I keep very accurate records, and I'm running jetting that I've used before at this altitude and temperature with good results. Just in case, I've played with it a little bit, with no improvement.

Reeds: It ran great before the top end, now it doesn't rev out. The reeds are still stock, and perhaps are wearing out a little, but that would be a gradual decline in performance, not an overnight change. I don't think it's the reeds.

Power valve: I have removed the cover to make sure the power valve is actuating properly, which it is. I guess it's possible that I put it together one tooth off or something, but I thought I was careful about that.

Piston: I noticed that the Wiseco piston's skirt was shaped quite differently from the stocker. Could this affect port timing or something and cause it to cut out at high RPM?

X & Z: I *think* I got these exactly as they were before. I'm sure I could be off by a few thousandths, however.

It's fully broken in, and compression is good. (190 psi at 4500 ft altitude.)

I've replaced the plug with a new one just in case the problem was related to the plug starting to foul or improper plug gap. No improvement.

One last detail: I'm doing an oil experiment. I noted the wear and deposits after two years using Golden Spectro and MC-1. After doing the top end, I switched to a really cheap oil and I'm monitoring compression to see if the top end wears faster with the cheap oil. Hmmn, I can't see how that should affect high RPM performance, but I though I'd mention it in case.

Ok, any comments you might have are welcome.

Burt

 

[yzeater]

That probably stinks doesn't it

 

[CRGuy]

Hmm that's a mystery. Pull your head off once more. Check to make sure you didn't put the power valve one tooth off. This is what It sound's like. Move it one tooth up and fire it up. If it has original power then there you go but if it's worse then go down two teeth.
Good luck,
CRG

 

[marcusgunby]

I would go striaght to the reeds as they are a known weak point on the 99-they were very thin and chip at the edges-replace them with 2000 reeds or get a V force for better reliablity and more performace with smoother power.I advised someone recently on a 99 125 who had identical problems as you and his reeds were shot.

 

[burtlamborn]

Thanks for the input. I'll check the power valve, then the reeds.

Burt

 

[Idaho Charley]

Burt - on my 98 380 EXC the power valve adjustment setting, which I use and like is only about one-half a turn from the point where the power valve will not open when the bike is reved out. Is it possible that you may have slightly tightened the power valve spring and eliminated it from opening?

Good luck and I hope it is something simple like this!!

 

[burtlamborn]

Good thought, but I removed the left-side power valve cover and watched it actuate properly when I revved it up. It opens all the way, and the cutting out occurs after it is fully open. Thanks for the input, though.

Burt

 

[Idaho Charley]

If new gas and oil does not straighten out your bike upper revving problem you may want to borrow someone's black box (ignition) to see if yours is starting to fail.

I had a YZ 250 and the first symptom of the black box's failure was lack of high rpm followed 2-3 rides later with starting to foul plugs at lower rpms. Replaced the box and ran the bike for two more years without trouble. Just a thought!!

 

[burtlamborn]

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind, too. And I did foul a plug the other day for the first time on this bike. 'Course, that could be fuel/oil related, too. Thanks!
Burt

 

[CRGuy]

I doubt the fuel/oil would foul a plug just this time. It would have fouled plug's before this problem. Could it be that you need to drill hole's in the piston. Does wiesco drill them?? there are supposed to be holes drilled or you have to drill them for the port bridge or something like that. I think that might be it.
CRG

 

[burtlamborn]

That's just it, though. I switched oil at the same time I did the top end, so it could have been starting to foul ever since the top end.

I think the hole you are referring to (added forthe '99 models) is the hole in the cylinder to ease starting. I can't think of any other holes or differences between the stock and the Wiseco, anyway.

I'm going Wednesday, so I'll get some fresh gas and see what happens.

 

[CRGuy]

You have to drill some hole when you do a topend on a CR125 I am not sure if the KTM's have the need for the hole but I gave it a shot.
CRG

 

[James Dean]

Piston Skirt Differences

You first mentioned the piston skirt was much different. This would have an affect on your port timing. Are you sure you got the right piston? Is there more than one for the 380?

I also had a power valve installed incorrectly on a CR250. It ran fine down low but did not rev at all. It reminded me of an old 70's DT250 or something like that. It sputtered terrible trying to rev it.

 

[mikromo]

Say, a couple of years ago I rebuilt my 250sx top end (96) and while I was at it I took the power valve assembly apart to clean it and replace the O rings. I got the same results as you with plenty of bottom end but nothing on top. It turns out that the power valve spring was backwards. With the end cap off and the bike running it appeared to be working, but it wasn't working right. I took my cylinder back off and took it to the dealer who showed me the way it went. Instant top end power just like b-4! Hope this helps.

 

[burtlamborn]

Thanks for the tips. I called Wiseco and there is only one piston available. According to Wiseco, the skirt differences shouldn't be causing the problems I'm seeing. (If nothing else works, I'll put the stock piston back in. If it cures the problem, Wiseco's name will be mud...)

Mikromo, I'm not sure I understand what you meant by saying the power valve spring was backwards. I did take the whole power valve assembly apart and replace the O-rings, so I could have messed something up. The only spring that I remember is on the right side, a torsion spring that wants to keep the valves in the closed or low-rpm position. The centrifugal actuator oversomes this spring to open the valves as the rpm increases. Is that the spring you're talking about? With the linkage disconnected, I can actuate the valves and the spring seems to be doing what it's supposed to. I took the pipe off and looked in the exhaust ports with a flashlight, and everything seems fine. Maybe the '99 design is different from the '96?

Burt

 

[Strick]

Wiseco Pistons

The last rebuild on my 300 (4-5months ago) I used a Wiseco piston. Two of my friends with 380s rebuilt their's within a week of mine. Both of them used Wiseco also. Both bikes run as good as new.

The skirt is different on Wiseco. If memory serves me correctly, the stock has a cutout that would remind you of the slide cutout. Wiseco does not have that. My bike actually revs quicker with the Wiseco Pro-lite.

Burt - Did you ever get rid of that gas, and try fresh?

 

[burtlamborn]

Thanks for the info, Strick. It's nice to hear it's probably not a piston issue. I am planning on going riding tomorrow with fresh gas. I'll let you know how it goes - I'm hoping that's the problem...

Burt

 

[RoadRunner]

Hole in cylinder

Speaking of that hole in the cylinder everyone was mentioning....does anyone know the posistion and size? My '98 is a pain to kick and surges at idle sometimes. I just took it apart to figure out why it won't shift and the kickstarter shaft's cage bearing had basically exploded and I would guess one of the rollers is somewhere in the vicinity of my shift forks and/or drum. So, now I'm splitting the case...I figure I may as well get a new piston and rings and have that hole drilled to save the agony of this happening again. Any recommendations on pistons?

 

[Strick]

Hole in the Head

RR - Denny at Holeshot can put the same hole in your '98 that the '99's have. I am using a Wiseco Pro Lite piston right now. I am going to try a Vertex before the 2nd half of my race season starts in September. The Wiseco is performing very well for me. I have 1000 miles, and 5 hare scrambles/hare and hound on it, and it is performing as good as ever. I am not sure which brand is higher priced.

Sorry to hear of your misfortune. I hope it is an easy fix. If you are splitting the cases, I would replace the bearings throughout. Good LucK!!

 

[RoadRunner]

I can have the hole drilled for free if I can just figure out where it goes and the size. I could have denny do it, but it's $100 I'd rather not spend, plus all the shipping and waiting.

 

[Idaho Charley]

I checked around in 1999 and had H&H KTM drill my decompression hole since they had designed and built a jig to place the hole in its proper location. (My dealer had not yet opened up one of the 1999 380 motors.) I measured it out of curiosity and it was .080 inch in diameter.

It makes a definate difference in kicking the motor through and improves the low rpm manners considerable. Only downside IMO is that compression readings are lower when measured at kick over speed.

 

[RoadRunner]

Amazing, a 2mm hole makes that kind of difference....I'd guess it would have been larger. Any idea on how far above the exhaust port?

 

[Idaho Charley]

It's been awhile since I put in new rings so I will not even venture a quess. I likely measured the distance from the cylinder deck but did write it down in my log book ( I checked). Sorry I can not be of more help.

BTW - I actually thought the hole would be smaller based upon 99 KTM literature pictures.