Acts of Intolerance

[CPT Jack]

from http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,81269,00.html

Acts of Intolerance

Student complaints about a visa program that allows international graduate students to work in the United States are ****** and ignorant and may violate the University’s Acts of Intolerance Protocol, reports the Stanford Daily .

The students passed out fliers around campus complaining that the H1B and L1 visa programs are allowing foreigners to take jobs that would otherwise go to native Americans.

Graduate Student Council Financial Officer Jeff Catalano called the fliers "acts of intolerance" that "will probably be investigated by the University."

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Since when is stating a FACT concerning your own best interest (and livelihood) intolerant?

If the H1 visa program affected any of the big unions there'd be he** to pay. Unfortunately there is no representation for tech people to protect the level playing field of (natural) supply and demand economics. Even worse, as a reservist, as soon as I'm called up some schmoe from fill-in-the-blank-istan takes my job, accumulating *valuable* experience, and enjoys all the benefits & freedoms that I'm serving to provide. By the time I get back, I'm far less competitive while he/she is more competitive - all without ever paying the price of admission. Talk about a raw deal. This really gets under my skin!

 

[Senior KX Rider]

Just add intolerant to the rest of the names you call me :thumb:

 

[MrLuckey]

Dang, I guess you can fling that name at me also. In reality though its better than what some people (Elk) call me in the chat room :yeehaw:

 

[BunduBasher]

H1B = Temporary work permit = indentured service - not good for either Americans or those on the program.

BTW, you have to have skills, education and qualifications and sponsorship to get an H1B - add to that the people here on H1B are here LEGALLY !!! - as it is, in most western countries (not only the USA) there are temporary work permit programs - most not as complicated, and restrictive as the H1B program. The advantage to American companies using the H1B, is 'loyalty in a can' - no job hopping, no unions, no increases, hire and fire at will. Good for corporate America - bad for both the temporary workers, as well as US citizens - H1B workers, generally work harder, longer hours, for less (not by choice either!) - all in hope for that elusive permanent residence status (green card) - it is not an easy road !

You'd be surprized at just how much crap I do TOLERATE ! ;)

 

[nephron]

The answer is NOT to sit around and moan about it--the answer is to get off your American ass and kick some bootie. In academics, that is.

 

[CPT Jack]

Bundu, good to hear from you. Are you hanging in there ok?

I'm not against H1 altogether. As long as there's an equitable (fair) system it's fine, meaning that there should be roughly 600,000 cool tech jobs in Ireland, Italy or other cool places available for Americans. Tit for tat as they say. I think California had 600,000 H1 tech industry workers at one point and it can't be argued that that displaces 600,000 qualified Americans (if those qualified candidates exist). The other point is that the supply side is flooded for a given demand which reduces the market value (=fair) wage.

The H1 visa program doesn't affect lawyers, politicians, doctors, dentists, or goverment employees. And probably little effect on Teamsters, Longshoremen, Electricians, or plumbers because of the level of protectionism their unions provide. I'm not an authority on the program so I won't pretend to be but I would guess tech industry is the #1 affected sector. I feel lucky to have a job right now (was on unemployment for 6 weeks after Christmas)

Nephron, competition isn't the issue, it's the same old stupid PC stuff that the article is about. But, in any case, does moaning make me "intolerant"? I don't thinks so. Seriously though, I'm ALWAYS working to enhance my skill set and expertise - that comes with the territory. It is frustrating though, being in the situation I stated above. So I guess I'm just venting a bit over that article. For good or bad, skill set and experience (including lack of unrelated-work resume gaps - like deploying for a year) is what really counts for a developer.

Eddie, how's things in the great Midwest? Tech workers of the world/ scratch that/ U.S. unite! ;)

 

[BunduBasher]

CPT Jack, tit for tat eh - you ain't seing my tat hmmm !!!

Lets put it this way, as an American (with skills), you can work just about anywhere in the world with very few restrictions, be it the Middle East, Australia, Europe, South America, Canada etc.

In an open market, there should be little or no restrictions on where one can work or live - someone elses fears, intolerance, and lack of skills should not impinge or restrict my carreer, earning ability, and right to a safe, and stable family life.

The answer is to have skills, an education, a good degree or qualification, and also the right mindset - all of which will bring you success, anywhere in the world you choose to be.

 

[Jaybird]

This is not one world order, contrary to popular belief.
We (The US) have no obligations to the peoples of other nations.
Rights, that our constitution and it's amendments provide, are for Americans and its inhabitants. We do, however, allow membership to the club and are very tolerant of those who want to join. But don't think for one minute our rights extend to all on the globe. It just aint so, nor should it be.

 

[MikeT]

Originally posted by Jaybird
This is not one world order, contrary to popular belief.
We (The US) have no obligations to the peoples of other nations.

:thumb:

 

[Senior KX Rider]

Is that a hint of intolerance I sense in your post Jay???? :laugh:

 

[Zenith]

Just count yourself lucky you're not in Europe! We are having similar issues with asylum seekers, the difference being they are generally uneducated and only want to sponge from the system. The minute anybody speaks up they are yelled down by people screaming ******/prejudice, it's a crazy situation! Even the government can't have a proper debate about it because the members know if they say one word out of line they are putting their jobs on the line... The UK are taking a firmer stance on it now, hopefully our government will wise up and do the same...
All I can say is too damn right Jaybird!!

 

[Erick82]

This is not news to me I have been intolerant for years.

I do tolerate people who are willing to work hard and stand up for the principles of this country, Freedom, true Justice for all, not this joke of a justice system we have in place now ect. Weather there are currently American citizens or want to be.

If they can speak the language or are willing to learn and adapt to are way of life, cool.

 

[CPT Jack]

Re: the original article...

The headline could have read "Intolerance will no longer be tolerated"

Zenith - apparently it's a communicable disease. :)

I'll go sit down now.

 

[MrLuckey]

CPTJack, things are going pretty decent in the Midwest - I just don't get to spend much time there lol. Travel and living out of hotels gets old after awhile but the competition for jobs with non-citizens probably isn't the same as the left coast.

Very nice jaybird :worship:

 

[MrLuckey]

Originally posted by TTRGuy
CPTJack, things are going pretty decent in the Midwest - I just don't get to spend much time there lol. Travel and living out of hotels gets old after awhile but the competition for jobs with non-citizens probably isn't the same as the left coast.

Very nice jaybird :worship:

Nephron, I only partially agree with you. I find myself wondering how the hiring of minorities (I assume at least some of the folks from other countries would be considered minorities) and our EEOC and many regulations, quotas etc interact.

 

[slideways11]

As an American with skills you absolutly cannot work anywhere in the world without restriction. As an American who has worked all over the world I can tell you that this is a totally false statement. America has by far the most relaxed laws towards foriegners of any nation in the world. In most countries Americans are actually banned from working there unless they are sponsored in by a national and it can be proven that you are not taking a job away from a local citizen. Even though I am married to a Canadian if I ever got caught in Canadian waters captaining a Canadian flagged vessel I would be jailed , fined and deported post haste. When I worked in the middle east there were a huge amount of restrictins placed on me there also. In reality any foriengner who is allowed into the USA to live and work should not bitch!

 

[BunduBasher]

Originally posted by slideways11
As an American with skills you absolutly cannot work anywhere in the world without restriction. As an American who has worked all over the world I can tell you that this is a totally false statement.

Originally posted by BB
as an American (with skills), you can work just about anywhere in the world with very few restrictions, be it the Middle East, Australia, Europe, South America, Canada etc.

If you work for an American company then there are very few restrictions, as an individual worker, maybe not !

Yes, most countries have policies which are designed to protect the local worker, and restrict foreign workers.

I think the point here, is that it is the locals who are bitching, as the current H1B system does not allow a level playing field, exploits foreign workers, and provides unfair competition for the locals - not a good situation for either party - eh ?!

 

[Jaybird]

I have only been involved with going to two different countries on work visas.
I was working for an American company.
I was in Mexico for 1.5 months and was told that I was not allowed to do any hands-on work.
Another job was to oversee a job in Australia, which never did materialize, but it was darn near impossible to gain a work visa for that country.
The restrictions for me were aplenty for both countries.
Folks from either of those countries can come here and have a carte blanche hayday.

I also wanted to mention what a buddy of mine went through. He was my roomate in the US Army stationed in Germany. He married a Deutch gal and got a European out when he left the service. He couldn't get hired by ANY german company until he had completed and passed the "auslander" course. That is a course that teaches foreigners to speak the language.

 

[CPT Jack]

Jaybird's point is absolutely correct - and clearly stated! We don't have any obligations to the world regarding this issue. That's not to say we wouldn't want to participate in a mutually beneficial situation. I think it'd great to be able to live/work in Ireland for a year. (Italy is by far the coolest place I've ever been yet). I'm not sure how/when it started and/or expanded but in practice it probably helped spur growth during the dotcom euphoria period when there just wasn't enough talent. At the time a liberal work visa policy made sense. You just have to be able to shut off the spigot though when unemployment creeps up.

 

[nephron]

I have no idea of the history of the H1 VISA, but I would guess that it was at least partially promulgated and made successful by the "bearing of the market"--that is, when all these High Tech companies came to be in the 90's, maybe there was a relative shortage of truely dedicated techies with advanced degrees?

By and large, people who emigrate to this country are looking for work and the "American Dream"--so they're coming here to bust their ass and prove themselves. By comparison, you've got this 20'ish American guy (hypothetical only--just an extreme example, don't get pissed guys) that maybe smokes pot on the weekends, doesn't really know what he wants to do with his life, but has his degree from DiTech and has applied for the job. He's got a girlfriend that's been living with him for 18 years, and he's "not sure" if he should marry her because her feet are a little too big. He likes to talk about the move "Terminator" a lot, and immitates the weird guy in "Office Space" a lot---all the time, and during the interview. He rides a dirtbike. :scream:

lol, what I'm saying is it's up to us as Americans to bust our asses enough, that we have the capability and look good enough on paper to get any job we want. A lot of it is desire.