I am seeking advice on this image of my sparkplug. It was a fresh plug put in and run for about 4+ hours (2 gallons of fuel) on very steep up and down trails that averaged running in mainly 2nd gear with some 3rd and 1st when I was really struggleing. It was all single track with much rocks, roots and dust. The motor heated up to 230 degrees on the long pulls uphill and ambiant air temp was about 82 degrees with 17 percent humidity. I am running VP C-12 race fuel with Maxima SuperM 40:1 It is a NGK B8ES. Does it look like I am running the correct jetting and heat range plug?
Advise on Plug reading
- Thread starter skipro3
- Start date
- Jul 8, 2002
- 96
- 0
Skip,I don't know but I sure wish my plug looked like yours.Mine is black and spoogy.I gotta get some new jets.Just thought I'd bump your thread.
Last edited:
canyncarvr
~SPONSOR~
- Oct 14, 1999
- 4,005
- 0
Color of a plug determined by such varied conditions doesn't say anything specific.
That said, it doesn't look like you have any 'too rich' problems to worry about. It doesn't say a thing about whether a three minute WOT pull would stick something......or not.
If you know your main is correct (by looking at the mixture ring after a plug chop) you probably don't have anything to worry about at all.
Happy trails!
That said, it doesn't look like you have any 'too rich' problems to worry about. It doesn't say a thing about whether a three minute WOT pull would stick something......or not.
If you know your main is correct (by looking at the mixture ring after a plug chop) you probably don't have anything to worry about at all.
Happy trails!
mighty moose
Member
- Nov 10, 2001
- 3
- 0
I use a BR8 vs a B8, but I've used both with no noticable difference.
Also experimented with EV, EX, and EG versions - which were more $ but again, no noticable performance difference. I run 40:1 and ride similar conditions, except humidity much higher in GA... your plug looks a little more burnt than mine (tan), but mine are spooged like the other replies and need changing every 2 to 3 rides.
Anyone have info on benefits of using BR vs B?
Also experimented with EV, EX, and EG versions - which were more $ but again, no noticable performance difference. I run 40:1 and ride similar conditions, except humidity much higher in GA... your plug looks a little more burnt than mine (tan), but mine are spooged like the other replies and need changing every 2 to 3 rides.
Anyone have info on benefits of using BR vs B?
canyncarvr
~SPONSOR~
- Oct 14, 1999
- 4,005
- 0
- Thread starter
- #8
Thanks canyncarvr. I did a WOT for 40 secconds on a slight upgrade paved road at 1800 ft. elevation with the ring looking the same as this photo but much lighter on a new plug. I'm mainly concerned with the temperature of the engine. I can definately feel the heat through my boots on the long uphills. I'm running EVS (?) coolant and took the overflow tank off to help with air flow but the engine temps are the same. I'm thinking I could sink a little more heat away with a range cooler plug, or jet just a little richer unless I'm just being paranoid about the heat thing and there is nothing to worry about after all.
canyncarvr
~SPONSOR~
- Oct 14, 1999
- 4,005
- 0
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you, yanno. ;)
Didn't you mention having the temp reads done by an infrared gun? (I got one'a those....looking at the laser gives me a headache in seconds! I point the device, then either look someplace else or close my eyes.) Where did the 230º come from, then? Meaning, sensing the clutch cover, the cylinder, the head and the tranny would give a pretty large range of measurements I suppose. That seems pretty high for the coolant!
Given: A WOT plug chop showed the same ring thickness wise. You're still on the rich side of things, then.
I did run without the overflow res for a couple of rides for the same reason...better flow. Put it back on cuz at the end of every ride, the rads were low. Maybe the res loses fluid due to bouncing around and such..but it does seem to do the job.
A cooler plug would sink less heat, btw.
Let me know where you took your readings. I'll haul my gun around this weekend and take some comparison readings.
As you likely know, you're not the first to question the temps of the 220.
Do you have coolant boil tbls with the basic 50/50 mix?
That's what I'm running...no 'water wetter' product.
Let me know the test points....and any other things of note like, right after a stop? Engine on? Off? Hot soak?
Didn't you mention having the temp reads done by an infrared gun? (I got one'a those....looking at the laser gives me a headache in seconds! I point the device, then either look someplace else or close my eyes.) Where did the 230º come from, then? Meaning, sensing the clutch cover, the cylinder, the head and the tranny would give a pretty large range of measurements I suppose. That seems pretty high for the coolant!
Given: A WOT plug chop showed the same ring thickness wise. You're still on the rich side of things, then.
I did run without the overflow res for a couple of rides for the same reason...better flow. Put it back on cuz at the end of every ride, the rads were low. Maybe the res loses fluid due to bouncing around and such..but it does seem to do the job.
A cooler plug would sink less heat, btw.
Let me know where you took your readings. I'll haul my gun around this weekend and take some comparison readings.
As you likely know, you're not the first to question the temps of the 220.
Do you have coolant boil tbls with the basic 50/50 mix?
That's what I'm running...no 'water wetter' product.
Let me know the test points....and any other things of note like, right after a stop? Engine on? Off? Hot soak?
I tried replying to your PM but you inbox is full.
The only thing I can tell from the picture and information you posted is the nose of the plug looks like it needs to be running at a higher temperature than it currently is . Whether you accomplish that by leaning the jetting, a timing change , or HOTTER plug heat range depends on a number of factors. Chances are pretty good the jetting just needs to be leaner in one or all of the circuits.
FWIW, you'll have a tough time getting ANY useful FINE TUNING information from a plug that has been for 2 hours under varying conditions. Anyone who tells you otherwise is just kidding themselves.
The only thing I can tell from the picture and information you posted is the nose of the plug looks like it needs to be running at a higher temperature than it currently is . Whether you accomplish that by leaning the jetting, a timing change , or HOTTER plug heat range depends on a number of factors. Chances are pretty good the jetting just needs to be leaner in one or all of the circuits.
FWIW, you'll have a tough time getting ANY useful FINE TUNING information from a plug that has been for 2 hours under varying conditions. Anyone who tells you otherwise is just kidding themselves.
- Thread starter
- #11
Thanks canyncarvr and Rich.
I took the temp. readings on the right hand side as seen by sitting on the bike, opposite of the pipe. Right behind the KIPS cover and about 1 inch below the head. Also at the top of the radiator. Both temps read within just a few degrees of each other. Reads are taken after a particular section of trail, bike shut off and read checked within 30 seconds. My bud's 200 is consistantly 25 degrees or so cooler. Also, thanks to both for the info on plug heat ranges. I was thinking a cooler plug would drop the combustion chamber temps but that doesn't seem to be the case. I will heed your advise Rich about fresh plugs for useful tuning info as well. In this case it wasn't so much tuning info but wether or not I was causing harm to the motor with the temp running hot and was hoping that the plug might indicate that. I think that I will try a range hotter plug just for grins and fiddle with the Air Screw in 1/4 turn increments for now.
I took the temp. readings on the right hand side as seen by sitting on the bike, opposite of the pipe. Right behind the KIPS cover and about 1 inch below the head. Also at the top of the radiator. Both temps read within just a few degrees of each other. Reads are taken after a particular section of trail, bike shut off and read checked within 30 seconds. My bud's 200 is consistantly 25 degrees or so cooler. Also, thanks to both for the info on plug heat ranges. I was thinking a cooler plug would drop the combustion chamber temps but that doesn't seem to be the case. I will heed your advise Rich about fresh plugs for useful tuning info as well. In this case it wasn't so much tuning info but wether or not I was causing harm to the motor with the temp running hot and was hoping that the plug might indicate that. I think that I will try a range hotter plug just for grins and fiddle with the Air Screw in 1/4 turn increments for now.
It's hard to say for sure from your picture but if I had to guess I would say the combustion chamber is running too cool based on the way the plug looks.
Are you cutting the spark plug threads off to read the plug? I was told by my father that Champion makes a device to look down inside the plug so the cutting is moot. Also more oil in your gas will cut down on heat produced. Did you consider that?
No preaching here. spears welcome.
No preaching here. spears welcome.
canyncarvr
~SPONSOR~
- Oct 14, 1999
- 4,005
- 0
There are indeed devices that make plug inspection possible.
Check HERE! for some good info.
Maybe bookmark the thread and refer others to it so I'll do it less? ;)
'Combustion chamber running too cool...' and engine running too hot aren't necessarily related. Meaning, an increase of the former may be a good thing that is NOT guaged by the measurement of the latter. They may be exclusive issues.
That isn't very clear. I unnerstand it though! ;) What does THAT tell you???
If my one brain cell remembers, I'll take my infrared gun with me tomorrow and take a few reads of the 200.
Check HERE! for some good info.
Maybe bookmark the thread and refer others to it so I'll do it less? ;)
'Combustion chamber running too cool...' and engine running too hot aren't necessarily related. Meaning, an increase of the former may be a good thing that is NOT guaged by the measurement of the latter. They may be exclusive issues.
That isn't very clear. I unnerstand it though! ;) What does THAT tell you???
If my one brain cell remembers, I'll take my infrared gun with me tomorrow and take a few reads of the 200.
That is not a universally true statement. Different oils will react differently in terms of heat. Either way you aren't ever going to see a measurable difference in heat with a ratio change using non-contact external measurements. If you consider everything that influences skin temperature you'll see it isn't a valid indicator of anything other than skin temperature.
- Thread starter
- #16
tedkxkdx:
I cut the thread so that it is easier to post a photo for everyone's input. Also, it is cheaper to waste the plug than buy a quality reader. I can agree that more oil in the mix will help lube and reduce temperatures caused by friction, I would also be leaning out the jetting by reduceing the fuel, and perhaps causing a too lean condition.
Again Rich is correct in his statement that my method of measurement is not relevent to anything but to other readings taken the same way. In my case that is relating the temperature readings to riding conditions (altitude, temp, humidity, engine load, etc...) and to another bike being read at the same time with the same conditions. This A/B compairison so far only tells me that my 220 runs warmer than my bud's 200 under exact same riding conditions. He uses a different race gas, oil, coolant, and engine mods. So far, no one has voiced an opinion that my operating temperatures and subsiquent plug read from a day's ride is indicitive of any harmful condition. That is my main concern, to first do no harm to my bike in a quest to discover all of it's potential. Even then, I'm not too worried about replacing parts that I might damage while discovering the KDX optimal configuration but I sure don't want to have to push this out of the woods due to a catistrauphic failure if I don't have to either.
I cut the thread so that it is easier to post a photo for everyone's input. Also, it is cheaper to waste the plug than buy a quality reader. I can agree that more oil in the mix will help lube and reduce temperatures caused by friction, I would also be leaning out the jetting by reduceing the fuel, and perhaps causing a too lean condition.
Again Rich is correct in his statement that my method of measurement is not relevent to anything but to other readings taken the same way. In my case that is relating the temperature readings to riding conditions (altitude, temp, humidity, engine load, etc...) and to another bike being read at the same time with the same conditions. This A/B compairison so far only tells me that my 220 runs warmer than my bud's 200 under exact same riding conditions. He uses a different race gas, oil, coolant, and engine mods. So far, no one has voiced an opinion that my operating temperatures and subsiquent plug read from a day's ride is indicitive of any harmful condition. That is my main concern, to first do no harm to my bike in a quest to discover all of it's potential. Even then, I'm not too worried about replacing parts that I might damage while discovering the KDX optimal configuration but I sure don't want to have to push this out of the woods due to a catistrauphic failure if I don't have to either.
canyncarvr
~SPONSOR~
- Oct 14, 1999
- 4,005
- 0
skipro: temp update
3-4000'el. Hi 70's to lo 80's. RH I have no idea. It's not generally particularly humid in this area, but 17% is pretty low.
I checked the 200 several times during the day. Hottest spot was the cylinder which was over 180º only once (by 4º!). The head was consistently cooler by 15º or so. The top of the RH rad was the coolest of the three, being 20º or so cooler than the cylinder.
The hottest reading was after a 2 mile or so uphill with a good lot of WOT in 2-3 gear.
Seeing as heat=power, you gotta be making a lot of power at the temps you're getting, 'eh?
Please don't anyone bother dissecting the above equivalency for me. I understand the process. ;)
So, UB hot, sir!!
I'm curious if the 220 is overall that much more hot over the 200, as your experience suggests. Others have thought so. Not enough of a testing pool to know if it's endemic to the 220 though.
That would be odd considering the difference in tune of the 220. Granted, performance mods may increase heat, but why over a similarly equipped 200?
I'd be concerned about consistent 230º reads. Where you going to go if you need a margin?
BUT, my wife's warrior had cylinder temps closer to 300º, with tranny temps (top of case at the countershaft 'longitude') aroun 250º.
Good thing she doesn't have any water to worry about! ;)
3-4000'el. Hi 70's to lo 80's. RH I have no idea. It's not generally particularly humid in this area, but 17% is pretty low.
I checked the 200 several times during the day. Hottest spot was the cylinder which was over 180º only once (by 4º!). The head was consistently cooler by 15º or so. The top of the RH rad was the coolest of the three, being 20º or so cooler than the cylinder.
The hottest reading was after a 2 mile or so uphill with a good lot of WOT in 2-3 gear.
Seeing as heat=power, you gotta be making a lot of power at the temps you're getting, 'eh?
Please don't anyone bother dissecting the above equivalency for me. I understand the process. ;)
So, UB hot, sir!!
I'm curious if the 220 is overall that much more hot over the 200, as your experience suggests. Others have thought so. Not enough of a testing pool to know if it's endemic to the 220 though.
That would be odd considering the difference in tune of the 220. Granted, performance mods may increase heat, but why over a similarly equipped 200?
I'd be concerned about consistent 230º reads. Where you going to go if you need a margin?
BUT, my wife's warrior had cylinder temps closer to 300º, with tranny temps (top of case at the countershaft 'longitude') aroun 250º.
Good thing she doesn't have any water to worry about! ;)
- Thread starter
- #19
Thanks Canyncarvr!
That 230 I reached was on a long uphill 2nd / 3rd gear run and not a normal temp. Normally I run about 185 and my bud's 200 around 160. That's on terrain most mortals can handle. This has been great to compare and get feedback like this, Thanks again.
That 230 I reached was on a long uphill 2nd / 3rd gear run and not a normal temp. Normally I run about 185 and my bud's 200 around 160. That's on terrain most mortals can handle. This has been great to compare and get feedback like this, Thanks again.
- Thread starter
- #21
I am running my jetting as follows:
Main-140
Pilot-35
Needle-top clip (leanest)
Air Screw- 1 1/4 turns out
Mods:
Air box lid removed
FMF woods pipe K-35
FMF silencer / spark arrester
Wiseco Piston setup
Fredette torque ring
Boyesen Reeds 607's
Evans MPG+ Coolant (Non water based)
No Toil air filter system
Mobil Synth 15-50wt in the tranny one full quart
One tooth smaller on the countershaft sprocket
Inline fuel filter
Fuel:
VP C-12
Maxima Super M at 50:1
Main-140
Pilot-35
Needle-top clip (leanest)
Air Screw- 1 1/4 turns out
Mods:
Air box lid removed
FMF woods pipe K-35
FMF silencer / spark arrester
Wiseco Piston setup
Fredette torque ring
Boyesen Reeds 607's
Evans MPG+ Coolant (Non water based)
No Toil air filter system
Mobil Synth 15-50wt in the tranny one full quart
One tooth smaller on the countershaft sprocket
Inline fuel filter
Fuel:
VP C-12
Maxima Super M at 50:1
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #23
RJ-KDX; Keep in mind that my jetting is for riding between 4 and 6 thousand foot elevation. Not sure what Georgia is but I'm guessing it is closer to sealevel. The tail pipe is fairly clean with just a little 2 stroke oil but not spooge. My definition of spooge is unburned gasoline with the oil. One indication of additional spooge is that the silencer needs repacking because it is clogged up. Cleaning that up may help with the engine breathing and will affect jetting.
