automotive engineers are sadists!

2strokerfun · Sep 29, 2009

I think all automotive engineers and designers should have to spend one week a month working on the products they design.
This next weekend, my project is replacing the alternator on my wife's Mazda Tribute (aka Ford Escape). In order to do this, you have to remove the right wheel and right front drive axle !!! Oh boy!! And if I want to replace that pesky humming power steering pump, I get to block the engine and remove the right side motor mount!! (pump tucked in the V between cylinder banks). Wheee!! In order to replace the rear spark plugs, you have to take off the manifold.!!
I swear I think these guys sit around with Tequila shots trying to outdo each other and laughing their asses off as they come up with the most difficult way to access wear and tear parts. Every time I change the No. 6 spark plug on my Nissan Frontier, I wear a bloody badge of courage on the back of my right hand from the sharp lip of the firewall. I know this is going to happen, no matter what type of extension I use. Thank goodness I only change them every 90,000 miles. Of course you have to have faith the engine even has spark plugs since there is no physical way to actually ever see one of the spark plugs once it descends into the depths of engineering hell to be installed in the cylinder head.
Oh well, I whine too much, but I bet I'm not alone.

Patman · Sep 29, 2009

Buy a bigger vehicle. Years ago I had a Chevy Monza with a small block and I had to undo the engine and trans mounts and jack the engine up to change the rear plugs. I traded it with a guy for a 1968 Plymouth GTX with a 440 and everything was easier to get at. Yes but that was a much older car Patman... OK I had a 1979 Bronco that I could sit on the inner fender to swap intake manifold and spark plugs were hangin' out in the breeze. My 2006 F150 isn't nearly as spacious but not nearly as tight as the Volvo S40 T5 my wife just got.

What I really find interesting is how different mindsets solve similar problems. For example my wife had a Honda Pilot and while the individual systems were each well thought out the complete package was a real mess to work on, much like your Nissan or Mazda. On the flip side both my son and myself have Audi's and they are a little marvel of a well thought out complete package. Sure things can be snug on either to work on but one is like an erector set put together by a 8 year old with ADD and the other is finely crafted with well thought out fastener types, lengths and access... and no sharp edges.

RM_guy · Sep 29, 2009

I had one of those Monzas with the V8 in it. Talk about a tight fit and I had to do the same thing to change the plugs.

Anymore I pay someone to work on my vehicles. I only keep them for 80K to 90K miles so not a lot really goes wrong and when it does it's much simpler to drop it off and pick it up the next day. Call me lazy but I can afford it and I'm not the one with busted knuckles and a sailor's vocabulary :ohmy:

...now on my bike...no one but me touches it ;)

whenfoxforks-ruled · Sep 29, 2009

You should have been with me a month ago replacing the front end parts on my Blazer. Sadism is an understatement! Man what I would have given to have just 1 of them engineers in the driveway. Unlike metals together cause corrosion, but the steel to steel bushings, the permanently installed parts that fatigue and need replacing? What were they thinking?

RM_guy · Sep 29, 2009

I have to have the ball joints replaced on my truck. Grease fittings??? Hell no. I only have 52K on it!

Patman · Sep 29, 2009

"Permenant" lubrication LOL! See if you can turn up some Moog joints they might have fittings, if not it's pretty easy to add them.

RM_guy · Sep 29, 2009

Thanks. I know you can't add fitting o OEM stuff (at least not mine) because the back plate is hardened steel. I was going to ask my guy to put in something that has fittings. He's real good and has saved me a ton of money in the past so if it can be done, he'll do it.

jsantapau · Sep 29, 2009

Belive it or not, the correct official way to do most work on a Ford 6.0 diesel truck is to lift the cab off the chassis and it is generally quicker to remove the radiator and fan hub in the vans to replace the belt

_JOE_ · Sep 29, 2009

It's getting more common to see aftermarket steering/suspension parts coming "permanently lubricated". This concept actually works well as long as you provide adequate lubrication and a tight seal. Unfortunately lots of mfr's are using less grease and lower quality boots allowing washout of the grease and then rust takes over. Even condensation inside the joint can cause rusting if there's not enough grease. This is what makes a fitting work so well, you can flush out the moisture while adding grease.

As far as poor design goes, I saw of the worst in a while last week. A serpentine belt tensioner on a 2002? Neon. It was locked up letting the belt slide right off. No aftermarket listing. Hmmm, wierd. Call the dealer. "Yeah, that's the whole front of the engine" he tells me. It was over 200 dollars, and a complete nightmare to change. Right motor mount out, no room to work, just barely by a thin hair made it out. Brilliant. There's so much more, I could go all day...........

Jesel · Sep 29, 2009

jsantapau said:
Belive it or not, the correct official way to do most work on a Ford 6.0 diesel truck is to lift the cab off the chassis and it is generally quicker to remove the radiator and fan hub in the vans to replace the belt

Nothing will make me swear more and throw wrenches like an angry ape on crack than those trucks. When one comes into the shop I run and hide.

_JOE_ · Sep 29, 2009

I see they make a special lift system to remove the body. That's crazy.

I wish I woulda chosen a different career some days, lol.

Patman · Sep 29, 2009

I bet it's easy to work on AFTER the cab is off though :laugh:

_JOE_ · Sep 29, 2009

Patman said:
I bet it's easy to work on AFTER the cab is off though :laugh:

Pffft, wishful thinking I'm sure. This is the company the built the Triton 5.4, even on the bench that engine sucks to work on. Fortunately I don't know enough about diesels so I don't have to work on them. :) Can you imagine the guy who has to pay the labor for that job? "Well sir, the rough running condition you have is being caused by a faulty fuel injector. It will be 3000 dollars to fix." :yikes:

Reminds me of an A/C evaporator. Just how much do like that creature comfort? 8,10,12 hour labor times to pull the dash board at 70 or 80 bucks an hour equals holy crap!!! They couldn't have made that removeable from the bottom? Not a fun driveway job either.....

Patman · Sep 29, 2009

Actually I have a couple buddies that do diesels (where is that GasGasMan...?). Anyway the one that lives near me says the Ford cab deal is really no big deal at all. Everything is quick connects and it was made to be serviced that way so it's about a 1 hour job to get it in the air. If I could get that kind of access for some jobs with 1 hour of work I would be all over it!

whenfoxforks-ruled · Sep 29, 2009

96 ford e150 cargo van, straight 6. Should be a real piece of cake to change the plugs. After deciding there was no possible route to go, a half inch hole in the inner fender well got the back plug. Go figure why that plug was different, older, not changed at the quickie tune up joint last year? SLACKERS! Zerk fittings on ball joints? A better idea was using big honking alien material rivets to hold them in. The after market, moog, had the Zerk, hardened nuts and bolts? The book does not say anything about taking all this stuff apart weekly for cleaning and lubricating?

_JOE_ · Sep 30, 2009

Patman said:
Actually I have a couple buddies that do diesels (where is that GasGasMan...?). Anyway the one that lives near me says the Ford cab deal is really no big deal at all. Everything is quick connects and it was made to be serviced that way so it's about a 1 hour job to get it in the air. If I could get that kind of access for some jobs with 1 hour of work I would be all over it!

I hear you there!

ws6transam · Sep 30, 2009

There is something you must understand, that car is designed for maximum efficiency during the manufacturing process. In addition, each of those systems, such as automotive power, power steering systems, cooling systems, primary and final drive systems, they are all designed by different departments that work in concert with one another. Each of those systems get in line in their respective "pecking order" for underhood space. Obviously, the engine and transmission guys get their space. Next might come the cooling system, any emissions components, then fitting wherever they can get it might be the steering systems and electrical systems.

In addition, most of today's powertrain systems are installed from the bottom of the car. They bolt it to the engine's K-member, then bring the body down from an overhead assembly line while the powertrain comes in from the bottom. It's then mated together, and within just a few minutes, the assemblies become a full running vehicle. It's efficient and easy (when you have a factory), and improves the auto company profit margin.

What you are experiencing is what happens when the car is designed as a bunch of separate subsystems, and then they try to figure out how to maintain it. The maintenance/service personnel have very little say in how the car is designed. However some cars & car companies are better at it than others. I'll leave it to you to figure out which ones do it best, since all of the auto manufacturers have their own share of design glitches in their vehicles. Just remember that the engineer who put that alternator onto the car might not have had any say as to it's location on the engine. She might have been left with that space when the power steering systems folks were done. Or, the alternator location was *perfect* for some other vehicle platform in which that particular engine is employed, but not as good on yours.

Anyway, the design of a car is tough, and making it easy to manufacture is even harder. To make a car that is reliable, inexpensive, tough, easy to manufacture, and a cinch to work on is incredible.

--Dan.
Member, Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) since 1994.

jsantapau · Oct 1, 2009

Patman said:
Actually I have a couple buddies that do diesels (where is that GasGasMan...?). Anyway the one that lives near me says the Ford cab deal is really no big deal at all. Everything is quick connects and it was made to be serviced that way so it's about a 1 hour job to get it in the air. If I could get that kind of access for some jobs with 1 hour of work I would be all over it!

well one thing I believe is that they should never make an ambulance or a bus body out of those chassis' because once the body manufacture gets a hold of it you are not lifting the cab of the chassis anytime soon

Patman · Oct 1, 2009

Most of those uses I see around my parts are based on medium duty chassis. They could always do a divorced cab setup for the ambulances.

jsantapau · Oct 1, 2009

that would make a lot of sense to me Instead of van cutaway bodies with molded on boxes, having a cab and chassis that is independant from the body I think from this point of view would be sweet. Way to often when trying to figure out something that is codependant I get the "that's the trucks problem" or "thats the body manufacture" response :bang:

Porkchop · Nov 24, 2009

A plasma torch, some sheet metal patches , silicone & a couple of martinis remedies almost all access problems that SAE DAN & HIS COLLEAGUES CREATE BY DEFAULT. Not always in that order, PORKCHOP
REMINDS ME OF A HOT ROD LINCOLN ! :bang:

whenfoxforks-ruled · Nov 24, 2009

Porkchop said:
PORKCHOP
REMINDS ME OF A HOT ROD LINCOLN ! :bang:

The 1 with the suicide doors, and you had to drop the tranny, header, and jack up the motor to change the back plugs? Question to Dan and friends, Do your guys ears burn a lot? Vintage Bob

Porkchop · Nov 24, 2009

3 Lincolns with suicide doors

FX, & a crew of my colleagues & I, hacked up 3 of them to build inspector gadgets lincolns. 2 of them were drivers rigged mid engine on trans axles, with the hidden driver seated under the hood up front. He looked thru the grill to see where he was going & had a camera & moniter set up for reverse. The 3rd car was used for an entire gaggle of different fx gags & studio props, also it had no fuel system for working inside a production sound stage,( absolutely no gasoline allowed .)
The third car had a big bank of batteries to run a plethora of electronic devices & my favorite gag, a 90 mm full auto paint ball cannon, gimbaled for aiming, powered by liquid co2 run thru a heat exchanger to keep up with the gas volume required for operation. My friend , Bruce D. designed the thing,(he is a former assembler of nukes, now working the film biz & is one of the best guys in our craft.) I machined bits & pieces for most of the afore mentioned. I love the lincoln song, Son your gona drive me to drinkin if you don't stop drivin that HOT ROD LINCOLN!
See YA, Porkchop :debil:

OnAnySunday · Nov 26, 2009

One reason why i keep my old rusty '90 Bronco2 and '97 Cherokee.

Both fairly simple designes, and fairly easy to work on.
I can change the heatercore in the B2 in 15 minites. nuff said!

(besides it pisses off the "cash 4 clunkers" nutjobs) :laugh:

LongGone · Nov 27, 2009

I have a '02 Tribute. I spend the 600 bucks and let the mechanic do it. I am not going to mess with pulling axles. I can't imagine it being very fun or going smoothly. LOL

automotive engineers are sadists!

2strokerfun

Patman

Pantless Wonder

RM_guy

Moderator

whenfoxforks-ruled

Old MX Racer

RM_guy

Moderator

Patman

Pantless Wonder

RM_guy

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jsantapau

_JOE_

Jesel

_JOE_

Patman

Pantless Wonder

_JOE_

Patman

Pantless Wonder

whenfoxforks-ruled

Old MX Racer

_JOE_

ws6transam

jsantapau

Patman

Pantless Wonder

jsantapau

Porkchop

whenfoxforks-ruled

Old MX Racer

Porkchop

OnAnySunday

Big Pig

LongGone

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automotive engineers are sadists!

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