Billy Goat riding at hatfeild&McCoy

[Extrachoppy700]

Going to hatfeild at the end of the month.Looking for local people who live down there who ride like billy goats.The last year when i was down there in one of the local bars they was saying how the locals can ride like billy goats.I want to see if this is true?So i'm looking to see if I can find them to ride with.I have riding every black trail single track and quad trail there and am looking for stuff more challenging.Thanks
Choppy

 

[James980]

I'm not exactly sure how you would go about it, but I think you need to hook up with some real locals and get off the H&M system.

I have a buddy who was able to do that and he said it was absolutely nuts. He actually didn't like it because it was too technical, tough, slow-going etc. -- the kind of hills and rocks where it might take the group 45 minutes to go 100 yards, but some people like that, I know. Finding a local guide is easier said than done, though.

My buddy's actually not too far out of the area and got to know some old local A riders who used to run the Blackwater 100 and eventually talked him into going out onto the "real" trails. You could try just calling up some shops or paying for a guide or asking here on the Internet, but it's a crap shoot.

I guess the main thing to remember is H&M itself is only 1%-15% of all the trails down there, according to whom you talk to. Regardless, it's not mapped and you'll want someone to show you the way around.

Good luck.

 

[LukeRips]

I've been trying to find the same thing down there. I like the marked trails but they only get so gnarly before they open up again. The black trails are nice and tight though. If you find a good ride let me know I'd like to tag-along.

 

[Extrachoppy700]

James980 Thanks for the info.That is what we are looking for is insane technical riding.Just like your buddy ended up doing.As we tell people that we are going riding with no matter what you do you will not make us mad.The harder the better.
Thanks
Choppy

 

[James980]

Hey, Choppy. Here's one lead that *might* get you somewhere. Try calling Blacks Motorsports in Parkesburg, W.V. You'll have to look the number up on the Web. They sponsor some local woods guys. Just tell them what you're looking for and see if they know anyone who can hook you up. Blacks has been around a long time. They have a cool dirt bike boneyard that's fun to pick through if you're into that kind of stuff.

 

[ScottS]

Is it OK to be off the trail ? I don't want to read that H-M was shut down because poeple were riding off the trails
If it's Ok , then go for it but if not, think about the consequences of your actions.

 

[ScottS]

This is a list of all the poeple they had to get organized in WV to make the trail system possible- Thanks to the following land companies for helping to diversify the economy in southern West Virginia.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aracoma Coal Company
Bandmill Coal Corporation
Barney & Iretha Elliott
Black Oak Mining
Bluefield Timber, LLC
Boone County Commission
C.B. Morris, Inc.
C.E. Richner
Chele Loving
City of Williamson
Columbia West Virginia Corporation
Concept Mining, Inc.
Consol of Kentucky, Inc.
Consolidation Coal Company
Cotiga Development Company, Limited Part.
Dan R. & Betty Jo Moore
Dan Rengers
David Clark
David L. Francis Testamentary
Dingess-Rum Properties, Inc.
Dominion Exploration & Production, Inc.
Donald & Kathy Brown
Doris Preece
Duncan Fork Coal Company, Inc.
Elberta Marcum Goodwin
Energy Mountain Coal, Inc.
Equitable Production-Eastern States, Inc.
Everett Hannah
Foster Foundation
Fulton McElroy
G-Max, Inc.
Gary Jewell
George & Helen Williamson
George Poole III
Gerald Epling
Gilbert Imported Hardwoods
Gilbert Lumber Co.
Guyan Realty Company
Hampden Coal Company, Inc.
Health Management & Associates of WV
Heartwood Forestland Fund, II, LP
Highland Mining Company
Impact Real Estate, LLC
Jackson Resource Company
James W. Blankenship
John Messerian
Judith Hamrick
J.W. Kinzer
Kinzer Drilling Company
Lois Marie Pruitt
L.O.U. Corporation
Larry Joe Harless Community Center Fnd., Inc.
Lauren Land Company
Logan Coal & Timber
Marianna Coal Company
Matewan Fuel Company, Inc.
McDonald-Robinson, Inc.
McDowell-Pocahontas Coal
Mega Minerals
Mid-Vol Leasing, Inc.
Mingo County Commission
Mingo Wyoming Coal Land Company
Mohler Lumber Company
Morris Adkins
Oakley, Inc.
Patricia Kennedy
Patty Hughes
Paula Canterbury Gilman
Phoenix Enterprises, Inc.
Pocahontas Land Corporation
Rawl Sales & Processing Co.
Reserve Acquisition Corp.
Richard Ellis
Robinson-Phillips Coal Co.
Rockhouse Creek Dev. Corp.
Ronnie & Elona Vanhoose
S.E. McDonald, Inc.
Seneca-Upshur Petroleum, Inc.
Shadonna Loving Chavez
Shannon-Pocahontas Mining
Sherry Lynn Lovine
Simon Curry
Southern Minerals
Split Fork Mining Co.
Steve Adkins
Sycamore Fuels, Inc.
The Bruce McDonald Holding Company
The Jim C. Hamer Company
The Ridge Land Company
Tom Speshock
Triadelphia Land Company
U.S. Steel Mining Company
Vollow Resources, Inc.
Wayne Ellis
West Virginia Dept. of Environ. Protection
Westwood Mining Inc.
William McDonald Clark
William Mohler
William P. Thompson Jr.
Williamson Mining & Manufacturing
W.W. McDonald Land Company
Zada Phipps, Trustee for Ernest M. Phipps Credit Shelter Trust

 

[ScottS]

Seems like they want you to stay on the trail based on this from the FAQ on the website

You may stop along the trail for a brief break, snack, or of course for general reasons such as to say hello to friends or other riders and to check your map for directions. The Hatfield-McCoy Regional Recreation Authority Rule 4.2.a.2. states, "a trail user may cautiously and slowly drive the vehicle or trail animal off the trafficway and onto the trail margin, not more than ten feet from the edge of the trafficway, in order to temporarily halt or park." While you are on the trail you may see abandon mine portals, heavy equipment used in natural resource extraction, or even natural gas well sites. Any old mine or other natural resource site or equipment can be a death trap. Trespassers not only violate the law but they risk their lives and the lives of others. A rider may also not stop their motorized vehicle near a gas well site. This could be potentially dangerous and is strictly prohibited by the rules of the Authority. Strive to keep our legal riding areas open and expanding, follow the rules.

 

[Extrachoppy700]

To all the replied thanks.I'm not looking to ride off trail at hat field trail but to ride off trail at someones private riding area.Down near where hat field is.
Choppy

 

[James980]

Scott,

I'm not saying anyone should break the law; however, you have to understand what H&M is. First of all, it is a great asset to the state. Second of all, it's a business. The H&M system is not a government body that can make rules that govern where or how you ride "off system."

You don't have to talk to many locals to find out that many of them despise the H&M system even though it has helped many in the area financially. They despise it because they have enjoyed the relatively Wild West nature of the trail riding in West Virginia for decades and H&M is attempting to legitimize it.

If you are H&M, one of the land owners who faces potential lawsuits from those riding on their property, or one of the locals who benefits financially or an out-of-towner like me, what H&M is doing is a good thing.

If you are a local who used to enjoy thousands and thousands of unencumbered and unregulated trail access but is feeling pushed onto a relatively small, easy terrain and rule-based system, you might think H&M is a bad thing.

*Some* of the locals see H&M as a big business that is moving in on their rights and pushing them around. Some are making money off of it.

Please understand that I'm not coming down against H&M here, I'm just trying to give you both sides of this -- not sure if I did a good job or not, but you probably can find out more by searching around the Web.

Personally, from my perch up here in Northern Illinois, I see H&M as a good thing in the grand scheme of things and one solution (although probably not the best solution) to making sure OHV riding can continue on a decent scale in the state of West Virginia. (What would be the best solution? A state-run and not a commercial one.)

However, would I think differently if I were a local? I'm not sure.

The bottom line is H&M still represents just a small percentage of the off-road trails in W.V. People still ride these other trails every day and will likely continue for many years to come. Right or wrong, that's the way it is, and, right or wrong, if you're looking for "billy goat riding" in West Virginia it's your only realistic option, as the H&M system offers none of it.

 

[ScottS]

I think the H & M can certainly govern how we ride "off System" on the property of the companies and individuals that provided the land for H & M.

I agree that there are probably lots of other riding opportunities than H & M in WVA- the locals who enjoyed unencumbered and unregulated access to lands that belong to SOMEONE ELSE is a different story- we all know what happened , the landowners got tired of the problems and shut poeple out. H & M turned that around with a agreement between the landowners and H & M - We will control the off-trail usage in exchange let us back on the trails- so far it seems to be working well and I was just concerned if poeple go to H & M that they stay on the trails or else we will lose them.

If the local guys know places to ride , and have permission from the landowner. then it's cool. If they are going to on the land of the above listed companies and be off the trail system, I am not supportive of that- that is what H & M was designed to prevent.

Not trying to be a wet blanket, but we have to police ourselves- no on else will, it;s easier just to say "no riding":.

If the locals can't see the benefit of controlling access to land that does not belong to them they are simply tresspassers. They may as well cut off their mufflers too, why be hampered by noise laws ?

If they want to get permission from landowners or ride on their own land, great! But in no way is it justifiable to go where you know you should not be. It just undermines everyone elses opportunities

That said, I don't think that the original poster was suggesting that. He has said so, and I misread his original post. But I was concerned enough about it that I made the point anyway.

The H & M system will grow and the guys who feel they are not getting what they want should tell the poeple that run it, and there are other places to ride in WVA that are not part of H & M, are private and maybe those are the alernative for those who feel the need to get vertical.

I think we are on the same page,

 

[James980]

We're mostly on the same page. Here's where we differ.

A) H&M has no authority over what you do on the land outside it's domain no more than a Wal-Mart security guard can bust you for driving drunk down the highway. Again, H&M is a commercial entity here -- a lot of people don't realize this. Asking H&M where you can ride is akin to asking the Wal-Mart security guard if he thinks you should shop at Target. Once you understand this point, you start to see where some of the locals are coming from (they're a really independent thinking bunch down there).

B) The scenario you describe in which the companies shut people out and H&M came in and saved the day simply isn't true. H&M created a solution to a problem that was brewing but was not quite yet at a head. Some locals love H&M's solution, some don't like it and some hate it with a passion. To conduct a large or even medium scale lockout would be logistically impossible considering the size/scope/rural nature of what we're talking about here. In fact, that people are still riding daily on thousands of miles of this land that H&M does not want you on is proof that such a lockout did not occur.

C) This is not as simple as Neighbor A riding in Neighbor B's field because Neighbor A doesn't have a field of his own. The situation with the rural mining and logging land in W.V., however, is much, much more complex than that on many different levels from social to political to legal to economical.

Areas of W.V. are extremely rural, rustic, backward, isolated, poor, wild and beautiful. It is incorrect to apply an understanding of how things work in areas such as, say, Chicagoland or most areas of Ohio to these back woods of Appalachia.

Basically, the West Virginians need to work this out on their own and what we have to say about it is only a slightly informed opinion.

Personally, for my benefit, I hope H&M continues to grow, add more single track and kick out those awesome maps. These are very well-mapped systems.

 

[ScottS]

Well, I should clarify that

A: the issue of H & M having jurisdiction in the whole state is not what I said- but if XYZ paper company is letting H & M use it's land for trails , the understanding is that other areas of XYZ paper company property will be kept away from. So if people go riding around on the property then XYZ company would be motivated to back out because they are not getting what they were promised- which is some control over where people go, on designated and approved trails.

B:Absolutely the problem was brewing- in your own words , "people are still riding daily on thousands of miles of this land that H&M does not want you on" Nothing is logistically impossible- just ban ORV''s, problem solved. Read things like this and your blood has to boil, but it is our own fault (from Tenenesee but I am sure I could find all sorts of WVA refernces I just don' have the time
"D. ATV traffic on state lands
(Contributed by Frank Hensley)
There has been a statewide move to limit damaging all-terrain vehicle (ATV) and similar "off-road" traffic on state lands. In State Forests, the Department has placed signs that inform such vehicles where they can travel, and warning them of fines and loss of property if they use roads that are off limits. In the Catoosa Wildlife Management Area, TWRA has banned such vehicles except when used by people with a valid hunting permit during managed hunts.
Private efforts, too, have had excellent results in the area generally west of Pickett where private land acquisition for conservation purposes has been in progress (NL240 ¶2A; NL241 ¶5). Thanks to construction of fences and a gate by Charlie Burger and helpers (NL250 ¶5F), all motorized traffic through the Tally wilderness, Dobbs Creek, and Chimney Rock areas has been stopped. All of these areas are now free of litter, and the Smoke House Cavern, which used to be full of beer cans and other trash, is completely clear"


C;
Hatfield-McCoy Project History

The Hatfield-McCoy Recreation Area is a unique trail facility. It is unique because of its size, anticipating at least 2,000 miles of trails in an area of almost three million acres in West Virginia alone. It will ultimately include more than five million acres and thousands more miles of trail when it expands into the adjoining areas of Virginia and Kentucky. It is also unique because the trails lie almost entirely on land owned by large corporations and held for timber, coal, and other resource harvesting. There is no other project like it in the world utilizing private property to such an extent for public recreation.
The factors that have made the Hatfield-McCoy unique have also made it a very difficult project to bring into reality. From the conception of the idea in 1989, it has taken more than ten years of constant effort to achieve the opening of the first 220 miles of trail in late 2000. This is a brief synopsis of that effort -- the story of the Hatfield-McCoy Recreation Area.

The story has its start with a map hanging on the wall in the government relations offices of the Motorcycle Industry Council, in Arlington, Virginia. The map shows, in soft pastel shades, the land throughout the nation that is under control of various agencies of the federal government. The map readily evidences that there is a great abundance of public land in the West, but relatively little in the East. This poses a serious problem for those who want to expand opportunities for off-highway vehicle recreation east of the Rocky Mountains. There's very little public land available to use.

Back in 1989, that was the dilemma that confronted John English, then director of state government affairs for MIC, and Leff Moore, executive director of the West Virginia Recreational Vehicle Association and a legislative consultant for MIC. When Moore asked why there are so many opportunities for OHV recreation in the West and so few in the East, English pointed to the map and explained how there are so few large tracts of public land in the East. Moore thought for a moment and then noted that there may not be much public land, but there certainly are large tracts of land owned by corporations in his home state, West Virginia. Although neither of them realized it at the time, the idea of the Hatfield-McCoy Recreation Area had just been conceived. Both began to reflect upon the possibilities of doing public recreation on large tracts of corporate-owned land.

Moore later produced from his files a somewhat dated study that had been published by the Huntington Herald-Dispatch entitled, "Who Owns West Virginia." This series of newspaper articles published in 1974 concluded that in 27 of West Virginia’s 55 counties, about 24 large corporations own more than half of the non-public land.

Following this genesis of the idea, it grew in form over the following two years as Moore and English, busy with other matters, mulled it over in their minds and in many subsequent conversations. They came to realize that southern West Virginia had the perfect terrain for trails and it had large tracts of land that over long periods of time were not being used by the corporate owners in any way inconsistent with public trails recreation. Southern West Virginia was also in great need of economic diversification, so a new tourism development there would be welcomed. The federal Bureau of Land Management had lots of experience in managing trails recreation, including trails for motorized recreation. BLM also had virtually no name recognition in the East and much needed an eastern-based project to give them a constituency there. West Virginia Senator Robert C. Byrd was well positioned in the Congress to provide funding for the project, and the enthusiastic support of Congressman Rahall was anticipated. Also, there was a great name and theme available from the famous Hatfield-McCoy feud that was part of the region’s history. All of these factors were stirred into the concept.

By June of 1991, the idea had taken the shape of a federally funded demonstration project of multiple-use recreational trails on private property in southern West Virginia managed by the federal BLM with a Hatfield-McCoy theme. This is the idea that Moore and English first shared with Mike Whitt, a former West Virginia legislator, and the executive director of the Mingo County Redevelopment Authority, right in the heart of Hatfield-McCoy country. Whitt immediately liked the idea, and a partnership was formed that would see the concept, although much reshaped in the process, through to reality.

So, although the idea was first conceived in 1989, the effort to implement it really got underway in June of 1991. The implementation of the project involved all the following:

¨ Identifying and bringing on board the necessary partners, BLM and many others;

¨ Selling the vision to community leaders in the project area and to state and federal government leaders;

¨ Completing many studies to support the feasibility of the concept and accomplishing the planning and laying out of the trail system and its manner of operation;

¨ Hosting a series of recreational events to show the feasibility of the concept and that people would really come to use the trails;

¨ Securing the passage of necessary legislation to control liability and legislation to create the entity that would operate the project;

¨ Convincing the landowners the project was in their best interests and developing the legal agreements under which the land would be used and the landowners protected;

¨ Obtaining necessary funding to complete the development and planning and to make the operation secure until it can become self-sustaining;

¨ Setting up the operating entity, hiring project staff, and completing policy documents

¨ Constructing, improving, and signing trails and trailheads to prepare for trail visitors.

Throughout this long effort, the concept has taken a new shape and has added many layers of related elements. Federal management of the project by the BLM proved to be not feasible, so BLM’s role has been redefined as a provider of quality control oversight. A new entity, a quasi-governmental corporation, now manages the project. The anticipated federal funding of the entire project also proved not feasible, and much of the necessary funding has been provided by the state of West Virginia. But much of the original vision has also survived. The part of the Hatfield-McCoy that is now open is just a beginning of the realization of the vision. Much more remains to be done and will be done over the next few years until the Hatfield-McCoy is finally completed.

One very unique quality of the Hatfield-McCoy is that virtually all the trails lie on private property. Much of the land in Hatfield-McCoy country -- so called because of the famous family feud that occurred here in the 1880s -- is owned by corporations and held for coal or timber production. With the cooperation of the corporate landowners, the land is being opened to public recreation during times when the landowners are not actively working it. The trails will close or move, as necessary, to avoid conflicting with landowner or lessee activity on the land

Also I think the bottom line is the local riders could never be the economic force needed to make Hatfield McCoy happen - they needed the tourists to justify the whol ething. So the locals should be glad they have this great riding area in their backyard. Or they can prove the naysayers right and keep riding illegally .

 

[James980]

What you're cutting and pasting there is H&M's side from H&M itself. It certainly is a great story as they tell it. Again, I'm not coming out against this trail system. Speaking as an occasional out-of-state rider, I'm all for it. Guys like me would have no hope of finding our way around the hills of West Virginia without H&M. I'm just putting it out there that a lot of local West Virginians do not like it.

They consider it a commercial entity that is moving in to take over what used to be thousands of miles of free riding in the state. They are afraid they are going to lose their freedoms and have to start answering to H&M hired security guards as if they were the SS. They do not particularly like people like you or me either -- outsiders just feeding the machine with our riding fees.

Are they whacko conspiracy theorists off a long lost episode of the X-files? Perhaps, but neither I nor you are close enough to the situation to make that call and reading what's posted on H&M's Web site is certainly not going to give you the other side.

Also, just to be clear, if you understand the nature of the region, you would understand that any kind of lockout is logistically impossible. What is possible, however, is for a commercial entity to slowly grow strong enough to take over the organized administration of that land, fence off everything but the trails that fit into its mapped systems and start taking names and charging fees. That is the fear the locals have.

Is it correct? Is it logical? I'm not sure, but that's how they feel.

If you want to get their side, you probably can find it in some four wheeler discussion boards. They can voice their opinion much better than I can.