Getting the kids the first bikes... Need help.

[bryster1973]

Hello all, New member here. I am new to the forums and have never owned a dirt bike before. I have two children I am buying for, a 4 year old (already purchased a ttr 50) and a 11 year old.

Currently the 11 year old is riding a Baja 70 cheap Honda knock off. Had to make sure motorcycles were his thing! We are getting ready to buy him a new bike and I recently hit a wall. It seems he wants to give motocross a shot. I do have my doubts on if he can handle it. This is were the problem comes in.

If I purchase him a 85 mx bike (something with real power compared to what he is used to), if he hates the motocross scene... will it still make a good trail bike? Or should I go with something with a bit more power made for the trails that can also be used on the track? Keep in mind, I doubt he would be doing a lot of jumping just yet (if ever). My only other thought was, let him take his Baja to the track and if he doesn't trash it in a day or so.... chances are he wouldn't benefit from a MX bike anyway.

Any suggestions would be very helpful.

 

[kx2502009]

cr85 would be nice for the track for trails not so goodkdx is a 2 stroke made for trails if not that a four stroke is best for trails

 

[_JOE_]

A small wheel 85 with power valve engine should be a fine bike to go between track and trail. Maybe add a flywheel weight and smaller front sprocket. Do you have any experience with working on engines?

 

[aweebitofjt69]

I wanna say a jump from a 70 to an 85 is too big. Bring the baja to the track a couple of times and see what he says about it. Dont suggest anything of more power and bigger suspension. If he is fine with it, Go for a 125 4 stroke if he wants more get the 85 with a power valve (KX and RM) to get more low end for trails. Hope this helps

 

[bryster1973]

Thanks for all the responses so far. It sounds like the best bet would be to let him try the track at least with his baja (hope he does not get made fun of too bad. lol), then if he likes it and shows more interest, then jump to the 125. I think you might be right about the 85 being a bit too much of a jump for him.

What 125 might you guys suggest? Something like the TT-R125E? Would these still be track worthy if he wants to just play around one day?

 

[Chili]

The Honda CRF150R would fill the bill either way, good for MX and a fine trail machine if he decides he doesn't want to race. The downside, not your cheapest option and a bit of an eye opener upgrade from the Baja.

 

[bryster1973]

That sounds like a good option really. I know he wants to do the MX track (non-competitive) and give it a shot. I just feel that he is going to be more of a trail rider. I think the 150 should fit him pretty well since he is about 5'2" 135 pounds. As far as the power goes, I think the 4 stroke is the best option. I think he would spend most of his time on his back if I got him a 2 stroke.

Are there any other bikes that you would recommend, to do some comparison shopping?

 

[justalonewolf007]

I'll pop in here quicklike to point out that the 150R 4-stroke will have some pretty good snort to it, in fact very compareable to the 85 2-stroke.

Just because it's a 4-stroke doesn't mean he won't be flipping it over - only that the power will be a little more predictable. I am a few pounds lighter than your boy, but exactly the same height. I love the way the 150 feels sitting on it, but after pushing one around a bit, and checking out the actual weights, I realized that the 150 is a far heavier bike than the 85 I currently ride. This may or may not be a factor you want to consider.

Either way you choose, both the 85 and the 150 are a considerable step up from what he's currently got. The first ride might be slightly intimidating, but he will be left with a huge grin on his face after the second go-round. It will take a couple days for him to re-learn how to ride and get used to the difference in power, and learning how to use a clutch if he hasn't already done so.

I'll warn you that I am slightly biased towards 2-strokes, but I will hopefully convey a few facts and suggestions based on those facts.

Pricewise, a 2-stroke 85 is going to be a pretty solid bet. The maintenance and rebuilds are quite a bit cheaper, and easy enough for an only slightly mechanically inclined young lady such as myself, and can be done without fancy tools. You can find a very very clean 2-stroke 85 for 1200 (fresh rebuild, race ready, new tires). Parts are incredibly easy to find, as these bikes are everywhere. The only "downside" there is with this type of engine is that you have to pre-mix the gas. Aftermarket goodies that offer a few decent hop-ups are also easy to find, and quite reasonably priced as well. The opposite is also true, as there are a great deal of options to help make the bike far more trail friendly, and less hard hitting as well.

The lowest prices I have seen on the 150s are 1900 thus far. Tip top maintenance is key, otherwise the result is a rebuild that may cost half the original buying price of the bike in parts alone (others correct me if I'm wrong please, I'd prefer to list facts, and not blab a bunch of opinion and hearsay). If you're not familiar with the upkeep of a motorcycle, you may want to hunt someone down who can teach you the finer points if you're mechanically inclined, as taking it to a dealer does add up after a while. Checking valves and maintaining them on a 4-stroke also requires one or two additional specialty tools. Starting them takes a "method", especially if it is hot or especially cold, but gassing up is as easy as going straight from the pump to the tank!

My suggestion is that you let him hit up the track on his Baja 70 once or twice on low traffic days - Even go there once or twice without the bike and try talk to a few people there to get an idea of when some better times might be. In doing this, make a couple friends with people that have kids of similar age/size as your son. Chances are, they may let your son at least sit on their bikes and possibly even take a quick lap around the pit area to get a feel for things.

When he does venture the track, he will crash, no matter how slow or carefully he rides.

Do NOT let him ride on the track without decent gear!

I repeat, DO NOT LET HIM ON THE TRACK WITHOUT DECENT GEAR.

This means a MINIMUM of:

- a good fitting (not loose or floppy) full faced helmet that isn't from 10 years ago, and actual motocross goggles
- a good fitting chest protector
- sturdy, over the ankle boots that fit him well. Motocross boots are highly recommended! (My first time on a track had me in normal leather workboots, and nearly putting the footpeg through my lower calf in a low speed crash).

Very Highly recommended:
- Neck roll
- Long sleeve shirt or jersey
- durable pants - jeans are fine - but if he's going to be riding regularly, a good set of mx pants will last longer, and are better designed for riding (heat shields, reinforced areas, padding etc)
- knee/elbow pads
- gloves

Some quick advice you may have already heard is to make sure that he holds his line. Ride straight down the track, if he enters a corner on the outside, don't cross over to the inside halfway through the turn. Don't suddenly move over to let faster riders by. Hold your line and let them pass you.

Lastly, I'd suggest you let him sit on all the bikes he wants, and let HIM tell you what feels right and what doesn't. If the dealers will let you, have him take a test ride on each bike he can. If you choose a 2-stroke, between the different bikes, I'd suggest a Kawasaki KX80 or 85. The power is just a little less "sudden" than it is on the the Honda CR85s and KTM SX85s. I have spent a little time on all three of those brands so far (with quite a bit of time on the Hondas), and noticed that there is a pretty significant difference as far as how hard hitting they are.

Feel free to ask any more questions you might have, or drop a PM or email through this site to get ahold of me personally.

 

[FruDaddy]

Definitely look at a powervalved 85, Suzuki has the best bottom end, Kawi has the valve, but not a lot of suspension adjustment (at least the last one that I saw), and KTM is pretty strong all over but a little more expensive.

 

[bryster1973]

I have been getting a lot of good advice here. Again, I want to thank everyone for the input.

Tomorrow will be his first track day on his Baja, he has got to start somewhere. I think that if he does like it and wants to pursue this... let him use the Baja for a few trips and if he still wants to pursue this, go ahead and purchase a 85 two stroke. He did say today that he wants to do the mx track but he doesn't want to jump. I hope after being on a quality machine with the suspension to handle the jumps he might change his mind. *fingers crossed* Maybe the next time I post a thread it might be in the "Bikes for Sale" area. lol

 

[justalonewolf007]

Whether he jumps or not isn't exactly about the machine. It is about confidence on the bike itself, and learning to get comfortable in the air. You asked if I knew any other children like this and I would answer that I would probably make for a perfect example (even if I don't technically count as a kid in legal terms).

I would expect that better suspension might help his confidence a little, as the landings won't be so rough. However, the take-offs are what the problem may be in his mind. Even at 21, and having ridden since 12 (3 seasons racing experience), I am still shy hitting the big ones. A lot of them are beyond my skill level, and I don't even attempt them.

Here's the main deal though - He won't be confidant for quite some time. Jumps take practice, and LOTS of it. The important thing for you to focus on right now is encouraging him to keep it up and encouraging him to enjoy it. The second you make riding a "chore" by pushing him past what he wants to do, is the second you may ruin the fun, and he won't progress. Again, that key word is SUPPORT, not PUSH

The good news is that there are some fairly easy options for you and him right now!

- Keep going to the track. Let him ride as much as he wants.

- Find a mini track, where the jumps are designed for littler bikes, with far more tabletops than doubles. Things aren't half as intimidating, and there are no big bikes to make him feel like he's about to be run over if he does tip over.

- If you have enough space in your back yard, make him a small single jump. It doesn't even have to be a foot high. Let him get comfortable with it. Make it a little bigger. Make it a little bigger yet.

- Let him do it over and over and over and over! Bring the camera, and take pictures and/or videos too.

When he first gets on the 85, things will progress in a backwards fashion for a while until he gets used to it (whether it's a couple days, or a couple months). By the sounds of it, you'll want to keep him off the track until he's shifting smoothly and at least comfortable making turns and stopping/starting. There's quite a possibility that the jump to an 85 will give him the room he needs to actually manuver the bike over any obstacles on the track, be it whoops, a double, or a tabletop. However, he'll tell you when he's ready to try the track again.

Read up on the threads in "Riding/Training Techniques" There will be dozens upon dozens of them about jumping.

Here is what they mostly say in a nutshell (Others, feel free to jump in and add anything key I missed):

-Pick your line carefully, keep your head up, body relaxed, knees bent, elbows up, knees slightly bent. Keep a firm grip on the bike with your legs.

-Hold the throttle steady (don't suddenly accellerate or "blip" the throttle at the lip, nor should you "chop off" or suddenly let off the throttle on the face of the jump, or in the air).

-If you let off the throttle at the last second, you'll nosedive. If you blip the throttle at the lip of the jump, or rev it in the air, you'll go over backwards (or feel like enough to bail off the back!).

-When you land (usually a split second later in my case) you'll have to work with the bike to soak up the impact of the landing. This means that you shouldn't lock your knees in the air (oh man does that ever hurt when things hit the ground!!!). This part is fairly automatic. You don't need to even talk to him about it unless you see him lock his knees, or it looks like they may be.

The above is pretty wordy and full of termage and is just plain old too much for a kid to think about all at once. Tell him this:

"Get into attack position, and hold a steady throttle. Look ahead, and not down at the jump (the hardest part)."

Does he have good gear that fits? When I first started riding, I had an open faced helmet (that was also too big, but slightly better than nothing, and after crashing more than a couple times, my parents bought me a clearance full faced helmet that fit perfectly. My riding improved a great deal just because of the confidence I felt in my gear. It didn't hurt half as bad when I crashed (no more yard rash on my chin!!!!). They also got goggles with it, and that helped a lot too. I didn't have to worry about dirt in my eyes, and I could go faster. They fit right, and I could actually see. The little things make a huge difference. A chest protector made all the difference in the world too. I didn't have to worry about skidding tons of skin off my upper body. It didn't hurt as bad when I crashed, so jumps were more exciting instead of scarey.

Boots, I will never ride without again, for reasons listed in a previous post. When I got good ones that fit, I was more able to focus on riding than trying not to be so fearful of getting hurt.

Lastly, let him know that some of the jumps are beyond what his bike can handle, and that he doesn't need to hit them all. I rode almost an entire season without hitting any jumps. This was due to an injury, but I learned a great deal about body position, and cornering, and picking different ruts and lines to take.

Keep us posted.

 

[bryster1973]

Well, I will say for sure that I am a huge fan of good riding gear. I might not own my own dirt bike (yet).... but I do understand the importance of good riding gear. Personally, I never ride on the street without my riding boots, riding jacket, gloves, and helmet. Of course on track days it is required along with the 1 piece suit.

So far for the Youngest the 4 year old with the TTR50... we got him a decent Thor helmet, Thor gloves, Scott goggles, Alpinestars boots and chest protector. Jersey and riding pants are in the mail. ;)

For the 11 year old... we have only got a full faced helmet, Scott goggles, Fox gloves and Alpinestars boots.

So they are pretty much covered for now... with the exception of a few odds and ends.

Well, we will see next summer on how things go. I am going to be purchasing a 85 for him for Christmas.

I will take the advice on setting up a small ramp for him and gradually increasing the angle. That sounds like a good way to get him into jumping at a safe rate. When he was on the kids track (65cc and smaller) he was still pretty scared to catch any air. Maybe this way he will feel more confident.

 

[robwbright]

That sounds like a good option really. I know he wants to do the MX track (non-competitive) and give it a shot. I just feel that he is going to be more of a trail rider. I think the 150 should fit him pretty well since he is about 5'2" 135 pounds. As far as the power goes, I think the 4 stroke is the best option. I think he would spend most of his time on his back if I got him a 2 stroke.

Are there any other bikes that you would recommend, to do some comparison shopping?

I'm 5'4, 145 pounds and I'm currently on a YZ250f - just moved off an RM144 overbore.

He's certainly big enough for an 85 or 150f.

Growing up - before the modern 4 strokes - I rode a CR80 - mainly on trails. They're "peaky", but I never had any problems with getting thrown off - or with keeping it going in the woods. Haven't ridden a CR150F, but I expect it has plenty of power to put you on your back if you are leaning back.

However, IMO, neither the 85 nor the 150F are going to just come up in 3rd gear and throw him off if he weighs 135 pounds.

BTW, once he has decent suspension and gets started jumping, you're probably going to have more trouble with him wanting to jump too big than not wanting to jump at all. At 13-14, I was jumping in the air higher than my buddies heads - and I never raced MX until I was 32 y/o.

 

[robwbright]

I will take the advice on setting up a small ramp for him and gradually increasing the angle. That sounds like a good way to get him into jumping at a safe rate. When he was on the kids track (65cc and smaller) he was still pretty scared to catch any air. Maybe this way he will feel more confident.

Tabletops are great for learning to jump. Even though you might be (relatively) high, there is relatively little penalty for making a mistake.

 

[bryster1973]

by a "Tabletop" What do you mean exactly? Lots of thoughts are going through my mind and the end result doesn't seem to be good no matter which way I think about it.

 

[robwbright]

A double jump is two jumps spaced in such a way that you are meant to jump from the take off on the first jump and land on the down side of the second jump. If you come up short, you will hit the up side of the second jump and that can be painful as it can throw you off the bike. If you over jump the down side of the second jump you'll "flat land" and that can also be painful if it's a really big jump.

A triple has three jumps spaced such that good riders will jump from the take off on the first jump, over the second jump completely and land on the down side of the third jump.

A table top is essentially a double jump with the "hole" in the middle filled in.

i.e. A tabletop looks like a table from the side - the take off, the flat part on top and the landing. If the take off jump is 3 feet high, then the middle "table" part of the jump will also be about 3 feet high and the downhill landing area will simply run down off the "table".

Tabletops are very low risk because you're not really that high in the air - the table portion is just as high as the takeoff. Plus, there's no second jump to come up short and land into.

Here's a drawing of a tabletop jump.

http://www.tjhsst.edu/~kdomina/Cad04/brubinst/jumppic.jpg

If you look back at the yellow bike in this pic, you can see me about to land on the back/down side of a tabletop.

http://s175.photobucket.com/albums/w134/robwbright/?action=view&current=100_2313.jpg

Here's a pic of a double jump - note the "hole" in the middle between the 2 jumps.

http://s175.photobucket.com/albums/w134/robwbright/?action=view&current=Good4.jpg

See the double jump in this pic:

http://s175.photobucket.com/albums/w134/robwbright/?action=view&current=04-20-07045.jpg

Here, jumping a tabletop - note that the "table" is the same height as the take off.

http://s175.photobucket.com/albums/w134/robwbright/?action=view&current=04-20-07038.jpg

Here jumping a double:

http://s175.photobucket.com/albums/w134/robwbright/?action=view&current=DSC08758.jpg

And here's what can happen if you don't go fast enough and come up "short" on a double. . . (it was the second time I ever jumped a double - almost crashed hard).

http://s175.photobucket.com/albums/w134/robwbright/?action=view&current=DSC08768.jpg

That's not a risk on a table top, because there is no "hole" in the middle.

Lots of doubles and triples in this video:

http://motocross.transworld.net/videos/video-ryan-dungey-450cc-supercross-testing/

And BTW, whoops are a lot of little bumps strung together in a row - they can be really difficult to ride fast.