Interesting article... Hospitals are crooks!

Sandjunky · Feb 23, 2006

What a shock huh? What you mean a box of tissues doesn't cost $130!!! It seems logical that with the cost of healthcare in the U.S., there should be more government regulation of hospitals. Especially in light of deceptive billing.

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Insurance/Insureyourhealth/P74840.asp?GT1=7823

JuliusPleaser · Feb 23, 2006

I have some friends who are ortho surgeons. One of them is constantly bragging about making $30,000 a MONTH.

Makes you wonder where all that money goes. :think:

CRguyStan · Feb 23, 2006

Julius,
Unless the pay is that different than on the eat coast, I'll bet your friend is bragging about 30k/month for play money after the bills. My wife works for an ortho practice, and the new guy just out of school makes over 500k per year, that is only because they dock hip pay to buy into the practice, the rest are well over 1MM.

I also agree with the original post, I will be paying for knee surgery for the next 8-10 years (4 down whoo hoo) for a mistake of racing between jobs, and of course Murphy got me.
Operating room, $90/minute, $5 tylenol, $30 percocet, morphine drip don't ask. The hospital was kind and reduced the bill by 25%, the Ortho said he would reduce his 5k bill (for 1-1/2 hours plus follow ups) to $500, the anesthesiologist $1350 to be there just in case, $1500 to hold a mask for 15 seconds, would not reduce. All in all 25k reduced to about 14k, but still all mine. Park your bike between jobs!

Yeah medical should be regulated in some ways, for the materials at least. I would not regulate the doctor fees or we might get black market quality for the reduced fees.
Stan

Okiewan · Feb 23, 2006

One of them is constantly bragging about making $30,000 a MONTH.

Now ask him what his malpractice insurance costs, lol.

bsmith · Feb 23, 2006

I'm so fortunate to have Insurance. I wonder however if the Insurance companies pay these or is it only when Hospitals bill direct?
I have no issue with the Money Dr's make, if anyones Jealous go to School and spend 8 years studying your butt off and then you do your residency. I think here in WA Malpractice is like $10,000 a month because we have more lawsuits then any other state!

oldguy · Feb 23, 2006

Remember a year or so back when a hospital in Florida started billing patients with insurance the full charge instead of billing the insurance companies? They figured that if they billed the insurance company that they could only bill for the pre agreed on prices where as billing the patient directly they could bill full charges. They used the logic they would loose money if they billed the pre agreed price and they owed it to their investors to get everything they could.
It all came out when a biker crashed and went to the hospital for emergency care and surgery. From what I remember the AMA was trying to help him fight it.

Okiewan · Feb 23, 2006

My cousin is in residency as I type this... yes, an orth surgeon. 8 years of school, 5 years of residency, that 13 years of being FREAKIN BROKE and putting in 18 hour days. Between that, massive student loans and the cost of insurance, trust me, it's not the big huge you might think.

oldguy · Feb 23, 2006

Okiewan said:
My cousin is in residency as I type this... yes, an orth surgeon. 8 years of school, 5 years of residency, that 13 years of being FREAKIN BROKE and putting in 18 hour days. Between that, massive student loans and the cost of insurance, trust me, it's not the big huge you might think.

I don't begrudge the Drs the salaries they can command but the hospitals outright overcharging is what gets me. We had a second hospital that wanted to open a clinic in a town near us but the hospital that was there spent well over $1m just to prevent the 2nd from opening. They bought out evry surrounding communities politicians and won the vote to prevent it at the county board level even tho the local govt and citizens wanted it. They used the argument that they were there already giving the services and opening a second would force prices up and service down. My thought is if the 2nd wants to risk their $$ to open up let them and then let the market determine who stays.

As far as the indiviual Drs I want the smartest best trained there when I come in and not Goober from down the road.

As you said ealier the malpractice ins is a major driving force to the high cost and reason many Drs stop practicing.

Okiewan · Feb 23, 2006

Even with hospitals "hosing" us, getting sued on a daily basis for massive amounts of money and treating those who can't/don't pay, I'm surprised they aren't going out of business faster than they are. Like it or not, they are a profit oriented business. When Billy-Bob get's $40 Million for losing a toe, we're going to pay for it. Where else does that money come from?

On the other hand, you have the Canadian medical system... ask Chili for his comparision between what he's used to and what he experienced at little ol Stillwater Regional.

oldguy · Feb 23, 2006

Yeah our service is quicker but I think he will also tell you that the Canadian Drs said that the method used was to err on the side of caution instead of cure. The Stillwater doc did a good job but the way he did it was safer from malpractice ins stand point but not as effective as a cure. At least that is what I gatherred from Chili.
Again you are correct that our system is much better in that if I get sick in October I will be treated in Oct rather than in Canada where I may not be treated until after the first of the year (if it is a non life threatening) when more money is put into the health care coffers.
Costs aside I wouldn't trade our health care system for any anywhere else in the world just wish it could get the costs in line so that it wouldn't cost you your good arm or leg to get treated (I don't really have a good arm or leg left). And I am guessing your next statement is that we have to look at us the consumer because of the rediculus malpractice cases out there which I agree does more then anything to drive the cost up.

I know 2 Drs (one an internist the other an ortho ) that left medical practice to become Veteranarians because of the malpractice threats.

Sandjunky · Feb 23, 2006

All good points. I understand that the overcharging is a symptom of a bigger problem (lawsuits, mal-practice insuarance, lobbyist on capital hill). But sticking it to the customer is the wrong way of making a profit, especially if fraud and deceptive billing is involved. I think it is merely another indication of the underlying problems in this country. Greed!
I'm tired of our politicians taking pay offs instead of taking care of our problems. So much for the fiduciary theory and ethics.

Chili · Feb 23, 2006

So you mean the final bill of $39K US for LazyBoy's DirtWeek 04 cartwheel was a bargain? :laugh:

Dave has it correct in that the method of repair they chose for Troy was very conservative and likely lengthened his healing time. It also means further surgery down the road to get the plate out. When I queried several of the top ortho's at the hospital I work at the only reason they could come up with for the method they chose for Troy was that it was likely due to it being a less risky procedure and therefore less likely to be sued.

That being said if I had to choose between having a serious health condition dealt with in Canada or the USA my choice would be your scary expensive system. The waiting time for diagnostic tests in Canada is absurd and has blossomed a new health care boom in US border cities catering to Canadians with money. Grafton ND has a population of roughly 4,000 yet has a full service facility getting rich off MRI's, CT scans and the sort from Canucks who can't or don't want to wait and would rather foot the bill.

For some examples Troy needed an MRI, it was listed as low priority so we finally got one 5 months later because I was willing to drive 200 miles to a smaller cty that had a smaller waiting list to get it done. My wife is having some serious health issues and has been off work on disabilty for over a year now. She required an MRI and CT Scan, these tests were listed as a high priority one level below "Emergent" She got the CT scan the next day because I was able to pull some strings at the hospital I work at, she waited 3 months for the MRI since our facility doesn't have an MRI machine. As a result of these tests the neurologist order two more specialty tests, she got one of them done 5 months after the request only because we begged to be on the cancellation list and offered to come in on 30 minutes notice anytime of the day or night. We are currently still waiting on the second specialty test, it is scheduled for May roughly 17 months after the onset of her condition and 10 months after the Neurologist ordered the test.

The grass is not always greener and while the thought of trying to pay hospital bills like you folks do scares me the fact is I am already paying by being taxed to death. On top of that taxation it is becoming rapidly apparent that our system without major reform will bankrupt the country. We are seeing more and more two tier health care slowly creeping into Canadian culture and with it our "free" health care will slowly disappear to a lower level service for those who can't afford to pay.

Sorry for the long rant, healthcare is a touchy subject of late with my wife's troubles.

COLEMANAPP · Feb 23, 2006

Its surprising how a hospital will work with you on their charges. I was one day out of coverage for a dislocated shoulder (a pre-existing condition when I switched insurance) and dislocated the shoulder again and had to pay out of pocket for the emergency room. When I got the bill and told them I didn't have insurance, they started knocking off charges like crazy.
They dropped a bunch of charges which was great but on the other hand, maybe my insurance was so high because of their overcharging.

CaNaDiAn,Eh? · Feb 23, 2006

Chili said:
The waiting time for diagnostic tests in Canada is absurd and has blossomed a new health care boom in US border cities catering to Canadians with money.
.

After my Grandpa had a heart attack he had to wait nearly a year for the pentabypass surgery he needed, which is just stupid!

FruDaddy · Feb 23, 2006

I recently heard Pres Bush talking about the need for health care reform, and he mentioned legislation to reduce malpractice suits, I don't remember details, but it could help.

towlie · Feb 23, 2006

Anyone remember Kerry's proposed government insurance option? I wonder if Uncle Sam would pay $200 for a box of Kleenex.

Okiewan · Feb 23, 2006

Dave has it correct in that the method of repair they chose for Troy was very conservative and likely lengthened his healing time. It also means further surgery down the road to get the plate out. When I queried several of the top ortho's at the hospital I work at the only reason they could come up with for the method they chose for Troy was that it was likely due to it being a less risky procedure and therefore less likely to be sued.

Welcome to medicine by lawyer. And REALLY why it costs what it does.

biglou · Feb 24, 2006

towlie said:
I wonder if Uncle Sam would pay $200 for a box of Kleenex.

They'd buy truckloads of them for that price. :nod:

Vic · Feb 24, 2006

I'm very big on personal responsibility and have no doubt that we live in an over-litigious society, BUT I've had more than my share of experience with doctors and hospitals and many of those that I've dealt with DESERVE to be sued.

LocoCD · Feb 25, 2006

A couple of thoughts to consider.
No one pay full charges. They are screwed up because of reimbursement methodologies.
Do you know that it costs over $2 million per bed to build a hospital in california?
Did you know it take 12-18 months of State review to do any construction work in a hospital to make it run better?
Do you know that nurses make $50-$60k with a 2 year RN degree? That some nurses make over $100K?
Do you know that hospitals must take care of every patient in the ER whether they can pay or not? Can you imagine going into a KTM shop, having the owner be required to give you a new bike without being able to ask if you can pay for it?
There's always more to the story than you hear.

Chili · Feb 26, 2006

LocoCD said:
Do you know that nurses make $50-$60k with a 2 year RN degree?

Is this an issue? I work in a hospital (no I'm not a nurse) and you could not pay me enough to be a nurse. They are worth every penny and then some in most cases.

FruDaddy · Feb 26, 2006

LocoCD said:
Can you imagine going into a KTM shop, having the owner be required to give you a new bike without being able to ask if you can pay for it?

Wouldn't expecting the shop to fix you bike be a better comparison? Hospitals don't give you a new you, they fix the old one. I think it's called the hypocratic oath, doctors take it, but I know very little about it.

oldguy · Feb 27, 2006

LocoCD said:
Do you know that hospitals must take care of every patient in the ER whether they can pay or not? Can you imagine going into a KTM shop, having the owner be required to give you a new bike without being able to ask if you can pay for it?
There's always more to the story than you hear.

That is part of the requirement to get state and federal aid in building, manning, equipping and maintaining the hospital. If they want federal money they have to agree to do this if they are truely a private facility they are only required (by the hypocratic [sp] oath) to treat life threatening conditions and then may transfer them to a public hospital

Chili · Feb 27, 2006

oldguy said:
if they are truely a private facility they are only required (by the hypocratic [sp] oath) to treat life threatening conditions and then may transfer them to a public hospital

A scary part of our initial contact at the Stillwater Medical Centre, especially as a Canadian who wasn't sure how the insurance stuff would be handled was the sign behind the registration desk. I don't recall the exact wording but it was something along the lines of they don't participate in the medicaid program, should arrive without insurance or means to pay you would be directed to a facility that could help you. Should you arrive in life threatening condition they would stabilize you as best as could be expected before transferring you.

tx246 · Feb 27, 2006

here is my billing "excess" story.

i have been blessed with kidney stones and have had them numerous times. sometimes i can pass them on my own and sometimes after a very long and painful attempt, i give in and go to the er. they usually confirm that i have kidney stones via xray before giving the much needed pain meds. bill is usually 7-1100 dollars. this last time i went to a new hospitals er. i had been suffering for 12 hours and was at the end of my rope. the er doc in charge sent me to imaging. i was expecting the usual xray but instead i was run through an mri not once but twice. then the considerable meds were given and i limped of to the house in a drugged up stupor until they passed. this time i went to the urologist and he sent me to a local image facilility for an xray. i had to pay for the xray and it was a one shot deal that cost 79bucks. a couple of weeks later, the bill came in from the hospital imaging to the tune of 3400!!! and the insurance had already paid!!! the total er came close to 5k for something that should of been more like 1200. im sure my insurance didnt even flinch at the mri. you can bet your a$$ next time i will allow an xray and decline on the mri because i would rather pay 20% on an xray than an mri.

Interesting article... Hospitals are crooks!

Too much of a good thing.

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