Y09 CRF450R – Real Steering Dampener – Detail Post Ride Report

Spokes574

Member
Apr 27, 2001
171
0
Y09 CRF450R – Real Steering Dampener – Detail Post Ride Report
________________________________________

This is an updated ride report.

I had mod my bike before even riding it and there were comments that that was silly so I rode several stock Y09 CRF450’s and a Y07(modified) and a Y08(Stock) and had those owners ride my bike.

My mods:
fork springs/new linkage/GPRS4 dampener/Fasst Handle bars/Full Pipe system/Hydraulic clutch/Chain/Graphics/hour meter, 100mm sag)

Honda’s Compression Release Arm -Pin Issue:
My Honda service manager said that there was no recall, but if a bike has the issue it will be fixed for free.


Ride Report
=========

Turning: I will say this, the bike can take inside or rutted lines with ease. I am able to dive into a line and stay in it, which I could not do with the Y05 that I had. The only issue is the back end when entering corners on tracks with lots of breaking bumps such as hard/clay type tracks, the back end dances/skips all over making it difficult to stay in a line or sit down comfortably. High speed compression adjustment helps but does not solve the issue. I initially turned it all the way out and it made the problem worse due to packing. I rode two other Y09’s with different sag settings of 108mm and 115mm and they both had the problem even worse than my settings. Even the owners of those bikes immediately noticed the difference and agreed it’s an issue. They spent the rest of the day playing with the high speed compression setting.

Power:
My initial report was that the power was smooth. But that is with my aftermarket pipe.
Aftermarket full pipe smoothed the power on the bottom to mid, but increased the mid to top over-rev quite significantly.

I rode a Y09 with the stock pipe and it felt like it had 1 to 1.5 additional teeth on the rear sprocket compared to my aftermarket full system. Power was explosive and abrupt. I did not notice any top end over-rev issue that the magazines were talking about. The stock pipe is great. Leave it on and do not buy any aftermarket pipes. Funny thing is that the other two Y09 crf450R owners like the power-band of my full system. They felt that the mid and top was much better and could ride my full system longer than the stock pipe. I like the stock pipe much better and recommend staying with the stock pipe unless you feel the stock is too explosive. My experience on the track is this, the faster I get out of a corner and get to, the choice line, the more difficult it is for the guy I am racing to get around me.
Stick with the stock pipe, so what if the top is a bit flat, I really did not even noticed it. By the time I got the end of the straight away on the GP track I ride using the stock pipe, the damage is already done by getting the choice line and roosting the guy behind me. I added 1 tooth to my rear sprocket to complement my aftermarket exhaust to give it the similar stock bottom end burst, plus I get the benefit of the extra power the aftermarket pipe provides.

I checked into Rich’s question who wrote:
“Have you considered the possibility that the "new" pipe might be slowing the bike down because it's characteristics don't match the EFI map that Honda built for the stock pipe? EFI engines only have so much "leeway" in the built in map, so changes to the exhaust or intake flow (like a cam would produce) will usually require a change to the ECU's map to keep the change from slowing the bike down.”

I called the top 3 pipe manufacturers and they each said their pipe was optimized using the stock mapping. They all also said something very interesting that caught me by surprise; they each said that the new bikes EFI system is somewhat self-adjusting to a point. I did not read that in the manual, but all 3 pipe companies told me that.

The pipe review did not match my impression of the pipe I purchased compared to the stock pipe. I double checked the dyno curve of my new pipe to the pipe review and it is not correlating. The stock pipe rocks. Rich had mentioned that the fuel mapping is optimized for the stock pipe and not for the aftermarket pipe. When I asked the pipe manufacture about that they said the dyno curve for their pipe is based on the stock mapping at full throttle. They dyno curve is not matching in the seat feel! Both I and the owners of the stock Y09’s felt that the stock Y09 hit and pulled to the mid with much more authority – it felt like 1 to 1.5 teeth to the rear sprocket in comparison to the full system I was using. May be I was paying too much attention to the suspension since that is my biggest issue with the bike. Buyers beware, try someone’s bike out before spending your cash on an aftermarket pipe, you might be surprised, unless you want to smooth it out anyway. I think the stock pipe is better than my full system I purchased by far! I do not care what the pipe review said. This is the opinion of 4 guys riding the stock vs aftermarket pipe back to back – I feel stupid#@?

I also asked the pipe manufacturer of the pipe system I purchased why they did not create a serviceable exhaust for the packing. They mentioned that adding screws added weight. What about user convenience?

Y08 stock power I thought was perfect.

Power (Hop-UP Shops):
I spoke to both and the HP gains they are quoting me (pipe, porting, cam, valve springs) is ridiculous high. I do not want to mention the number because it will create lots of forum discussion, especially with Rich. I will say that both shops I spoke to gave me roughly the same number. They both said this is one of the only engines they have seen that has lots of untapped potential in it. I do not now, but If the stock bike gets anymore bottom, I am not sure if anyone can even make good use of that power.

Gearing: With the full pipe I have on I did not have any issues with gaps, and I did not notice any issues with the stock pipe(though the magazines said it did). But then again I generally use 3rd mainly & 4rth occasionally. With the stock pipe, I did not have a need to ever use second since it is so explosive anyway. I will tell you this, if you add a tooth to the rear sprocket with the stock exhaust, the bike will be way too explosive and uncontrollable in the lower gears on tracks without good tacky traction. For those that buy after market pipes, those pipes essentially move the power a bit from low to the mid/top making a lot more on the mid/top, but you could add a tooth to the rear sprocket and possibly get the best of both. I see why folks are playing with the mapping to smooth out the bottom/mid on the stock pipe system. If you get an aftermarket pipe, you will not have to worry about smoothing out the bottom/mid explosiveness because the aftermarket pipe do that already.

Balance - just sitting in the garage floor you can tell the back end is sitting way high. I changed the linkage and the bike flattened out. I rode two stock Y09’s with different sag settings of 108mm and 115mm and the bike still felt way too high. Both owners of the stock Y09 immediately asked how I was able to flatten out the bike.

Suspension- I changed the front springs out and played with oil height till I got the bike to be super plush w/o bottoming at 10 clicks out and leaving about ½” of travel left on the fork leg. I am able to do big triples and use all the travel and if I over shoot table tops and still have ½” of safety travel left – NICE. These forks have great bottoming resistance.
I rode two stock Y09 and the forks seemed harsh to me. Both stock bikes I rode, the owners had the compression clickers all the way out for their weight of (160lb and 175lb). They agreed that their forks felt harsh and were no way near the plushness of my forks. Both owners said that the harness is more noticeable now that the suspension is broken in.
One of them said that during corners his bike dives through the stroke. Light riders will need to have these forks revalved in my opinion.

The shock is a different story. The stock 5.4 spring is typically used for 200-220lb guys. Most Honda crf450’s come with 5.2 and that was good for bottoming resistance at my 180lb weight. I am at 14 clicks out on tracks with big jumps, and 18 clicks out on smoother/sand/smaller jump tracks and I still can’t tell if I am bottoming out or not. I could usually tell at the ankles on my Y05, but on this bike it never seems to bottom out. All I know is that the back end dances when entering turns with ruts and lots of braking bumps. I have not solved this problem yet. It was worse on the other two Y09 bikes I rode.
I have been told to adjust my highspeed again, if no improvement then add 2mm of sag.
If all fails, then I will resort to a softer spring possibly – I am not a revalve fan at all.

The suspension on the stock Y08 crf450R blows away the Y09.

Electronics- seems scary. Lots of wires and sensors everywhere and I read that one of the lines is pressurized. I was nervous when I was adding all the new mods to the bike.

Starting- I am not sure what the magazines are talking about, this bike starts easily for me. I give it 7 kicks in the morning to charge the electronics, than smooth but strong! kick from the top and it turns on fine every time. Even if I should fall in a corner, it turns right on with one strong kick.

Stalling - Yes, you need to have the idle up on this bike! it will stall in corners if you do not carry speed. I turned the idle to 1440rpm and the problem went away. Some magazines say tune it to 1800rpm, that’s way too high and I found it to be unnecessary. The 1440rpm setting works fine

Lightness: I can flick this bike around easier than my Y05. It does not seem thinner to me than my Y05, and does not feel like a 250F, but does seem to be a bit more flickable.
I think the fact that 0.4Gal of gas is not in the tank makes a big deal. Remember that 1Gal of gas weighs almost 7lbs.

Steering Dampener:
What a joke. For those of us who have used one for years and know what it does and how it can help, the stock one is a joke. Honda added their dampener due to the steep offset of the triple clamps in effort to help minimize TUCKING / STICKING of the front tire when making tight turns. It does nothing for straight line stability since it only kicks in once past 15 degrees past center in effort to slow down the steering a bit on tight corners- to minimize TUCKING/STICKING. On my Y05 with 20mm offset I was experiencing the above and fixed the issue by adjusting my oil height- which kept my forks higher in the stroke at the entrance of turns.

I rode two stock Y09’s and a Y08 and asked them if they turned it off, they all said they had it turned up to the max, and I started to laugh. They all rode my Y09 with the GPR V4 and said that after 3 laps they did not notice it and the bike handled much better on straight high speed turns, I have it set to the 3 setting and when the oil wears down over time I slowly creep it up to 5 or 6. People complain about the cost of a dampener, but I move mine from bike to bike just like my FASST bars. Folks also complain about the extra bar height of a dampener and they are correct there. Most aftermarket dampeners will increase the bar height by 1”-2”. The GPR will raise it 3/8”, 0.6” or 7mm depending on bike and which mount you choose, that is why I selected that brand over the other brands available. I put pictures of my setup below so that everyone can see. Once you use a real dampener it is difficult to ride w/o it. I decided to get mine after almost losing my grip on the handlebar coming down a long hill during a race 3x’s. I decided a hospital bill would cost a lot more that the dampener and my wife agreed and gave me the ok to purchase. My teenage son at first was skeptical, he now does not like to ride without it – I do have to send it in for oil servicing from time to time. The new just released top clamp from GPR for their dampener gave a rise of <7mm over the stock height. The setup is trick.

I called several top suspension companies before even getting the bike and asked them if I should keep the stock on or put my GPR V4, they all said to put the GPR on and take off the stock – they were all right! Go get one. I have not tried out any of the revalved versions of the stock dampener so I can not say for sure if a revalved stock one is any good or not.

p1020017uc4.jpg

p1070028ju8.jpg

p1070029tp8.jpg

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/4074/pc200012ym1.jpg[/IMG]

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/4955/p1020014yl6.jpg
http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/818/p1020017uc4.jpg
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/2054/p1070028ju8.jpg
http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/7613/p1070029tp8.jpg
http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/7576/p1070034rf5.jpg
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/4074/pc200012ym1.jpg
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/2824/p1020019wv5.jpg
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/2928/p1070027fp8.jpg
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/8408/p1070031ow8.jpg
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/441/p1070035cf6.jpg
http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/1852/p1070036sk5.jpg
http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/5052/p1070039aa0.jpg
http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/4062/pc200013ly0.jpg

Brakes
I think the brakes work real good. I had an oversized front rotor, and an aftermarket rear rotor on my Y05 and think this bike stops just as good or better. Possibly have something to do with the stock pads? I do not know, but I will be sticking with the stock pads because I do not want to take any chances in degrading the current performance. This past year has not been good to me with oversized rotors anyway. I had gone through two in 6 months due to aggressive racing, had foot pegs of fellow riders get stuck in it.
I will be sticking with the stocker on this bike, including the pads.

Hydraulic Clutch
Compared to a steel cable, the steel cable gives a more 1 to 1 feel from lever to clutch release. The hydraulic clutch has a slight spongy feel, and that was the comment from everyone who tested my bike. The advantage is never having to adjust it and the feel is always consistent. Though it felt spongy, everyone loved it due to its consistent feel. Clutch pull is slightly lighter than stock, but I am using a shorty lever and the pull is slightly stiffer from stock with the shorty lever. Advantage of shorty lever is that if you drop the bike in the corner, it typically never touches the dirt.

Flex BARS
They are not cheap, but I take them from bike to bike. I broke a wrist years ago from bottoming out after over jumping a big table top. I did not crash, but my solid oversized bar was bent on the side that my wrist broke. Since then I have always used the flex bars. I feel that they absorb vibration, gives me a safety cushion of ½” if I bottom out, and take the stress of my elbows entering braking bumps of turns. I can adjust the amount of flex by tightening down on the elastimer screw. It takes 2 rides to get use to the feel. But with a steering dampener I am able to run even a softer rubber elastimer because the aftermarket steering dampener takes out any giggle that I would normally get when using softer elastimer on fast long straight-a-ways. It allows you to run stiffer suspension if needed since the handlebar has some give, it acts like suspension for the smaller bumps. Lover them and will never ride w/o them.

I hope that the other forum readers found this summary useful. Once I get the shock figured out (minimize the bouncing upon the entrance of turns with lots of braking bumps), I will post the best fix that I found and implemented.

Spokes574
California
 
Last edited:

holeshot

Crazy Russian
LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jan 25, 2000
1,823
0
Did you have any issues with the stock clutch? (stiff pull and durability)
 

Rich Rohrich

Moderator / BioHazard
LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jul 27, 1999
22,838
16,902
Chicago
Spokes574 said:
I called the top 3 pipe manufacturers and they each said their pipe was optimized using the stock mapping. They all also said something very interesting that caught me by surprise; they each said that the new bikes EFI system is somewhat self-adjusting to a point. I did not read that in the manual, but all 3 pipe companies told me that.

With all due respect to the pipe companies, if you look at the sensors used on the bike, and the table based ECU mapping, you'll quickly see that there is no feedback mechanism built into this EFI design to make it "self-adjusting" in respect to major changes in engine air flow. The system calculates the mass of air entering the engine based on specific throttle, rpm, MAP and temp readings. From here it takes the calculation and determines the injector pulse open time and the ignition advance that corresponds to this air mass. What it doesn't do is MEASURE the air flow, so it has to make assumptions about airflow based on the dyno/lab measured air mass values of the stock components under various load and temperature conditions.

There is nothing in the system to read oxygen content in the exhaust or changes in the mass air flow rate and provide air mass feedback information to the ECU. It's a Speed Density system using a fixed lookup table based on the calculation of the above parameters.

If a pipe (or any mod) happens to fall within these Honda design parameters it will likely work very well, but keep in mind that mods that actually increase horsepower by definition have to change the mass air flow rate of the engine, and will require a corresponding change to the fuel curve at various points and usually ignition advance changes as well.

For better or worse remapping the ECU on a system like this is going to be a necessary evil if any serious mods are undertaken. The good news is Honda designed this system to be easily modified by the average racer.

It might be possible to get better results from the Yosh pipe with a change in the mapping. Time will tell I suppose.

Thanks for the excellent write up and honest evaluation of the mods. Great job. :cool:
 

Spokes574

Member
Apr 27, 2001
171
0
Rich,
I am in agreement with your assessment on the mapping. Here is the reason why, I was told in Feb. one of the pipe vendors will be releasing a PIM piggy back onto the original ECU box module that will increase HP by 1/2 to 1hp with no map configuration changes and more if one modifies the map. So that tells me there is more that can be squeezed out of the pipe. But the price they told me is so expensive (almost the price of a slip on pipe) that it does not seem to be worth it to me or the average rider.

Spokes574
 

Rich Rohrich

Moderator / BioHazard
LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jul 27, 1999
22,838
16,902
Chicago
The Honda built ECU programmer looks like the first piece most will need if they want to make significant changes and have some flexibility in the mapping. From what I've heard it won't be cheap either.

Given how good the engine is stock I doubt most riders will feel the need to make major changes.
 

Chili

Lifetime Sponsor - Photog Moderator
Apr 9, 2002
8,062
15
One of the Honda guys can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the Honda programmer is listed at $395. I know the Kawi one is over $500 but also has some DAQ abilities.
 

Rich Rohrich

Moderator / BioHazard
LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jul 27, 1999
22,838
16,902
Chicago
The Kawi package looks really slick, and I think the onboard DAQ features will prove to be a bargain at that price.
 
Top Bottom