Is it me, or are new tracks getting stupid?

CaptainObvious · Jul 2, 2004

Warning, Old Man rants to follow…

First, I went to a track last night. This is a track that is shared by both bikes and quads. I can’t tell you how many kids (like 6/7 year old kids) I saw riding FULL SIZE quads in the pit area. What are those parents thinking??? Trucks coming and going and riders moving around…

Second, It seemed as though there are kids that NEVER leave the pit area. They ride their little crapmobiles around the pit, trying to pull wheelies and whatnot. They actually wait until you look at them, then they try to pull-off some “trick”. Once again, what are those parents thinking?

Finally [rant to follow introduction], the track I went to has a lot of different riding areas, and for that I give them credit…but the execution is poor. There are both a kiddie track and a beginner harescramble course, and both are fine. Then there is a beginner MX track, once again, a nice track with good beginner jumps. My 9-year old son Connor had a good time riding on this track and a beginner harescramble course.

There are also intermediate and expert MX tracks. The expert track is what you’d expect and is well laid out. I enjoy most of it, but I’m not comfortable with the 40’ gap jumps…but then again, I’m not an expert rider. [begin rant]. It’s the intermediate track that pisses me off. At this track, the intermediate track has 3 gap jumps with 20’ to 30’ gaps. That’s OK, because the purpose of the intermediate track is to prepare you for the more challenging environment of the expert track. [full rant mode] What drives me nuts is that these are not SAFE gap jumps…they are the type that have a 4 to 5 foot high ramp, on a 45-degree angle. The landing zone is a mirror image of the jump face, so if you misjudge the jump, you are almost guaranteed an injury. Why have such an extreme jump on an intermediate track? I’m an intermediate rider and I always like to challenge myself…but a jump without a safe landing zone is a jump I will not take. So here I am going around and rolling over jumps. What is disturbing is that this condition is endemic at many tracks…SX style jumps at practice and/or intermediate tracks.

Is it me, or are tracks becoming to unsafe? What is the problem with a long, and safe, landing zone. I want to encourage my son to try more challenging tracks and jumps, but I find myself giving him advice that I wont follow on these jumps, i.e. “Once committed to the jump, keep it pinned and DO NOT roll off or loose your nerve”. I don’t look forward to the day I’m driving him to the hospital and he says to me “I followed your advice…”

Shig · Jul 2, 2004

We have the same challenges here in Colorado. It doesn't matter what the promoters do, someone is always unhappy with the track conditions. I agree that an "intermediate" track should have nothing but safe jumps...if there is such thing. I might suggest getting a few riders together to talk to the track operator and ask them to make changes where appropriate.

As for pit racers, without someone out there marshalling, it's up to all of us to watch each other's backs. I'm more than happy to confront someone who's putting my fellow riders in jeopardy.

RM_guy · Jul 2, 2004

There is a local practice track that I haven't been to in over 2 years because the owner's son wanted the jumps to be more challenging (to him). Myself and several friends said screw that and never went back. Well recently I heard that he has changed the track back to a much more rider friendly and safer track. The jumps are all just as big but they are now all table top jumps...do 'em if ya want but you're not going to kill yourself if ya don't. I have already been there twice this year and plan on going more.

So what's my point, it turns out that the owner started riding again (he's an old fart like me) and even he didn't like the way the track was. In addition he realized that he wasn't making any money off it because lots of us refused to ride there. We had to drive twice as far to ride. He also realized that the track can still be very challenging but safe for all levels. It can be done and he's doing it. If track owners really wanted to serve there customers then they would make the tracks safer.

Okiewan · Jul 2, 2004

.. I mentioned to motometal on the phone other day that I think there's a market for old-school GP style tracks. You know the ones. You have to actually know how to turn (everything is NOT a bowl), there are even off-cambers. Jumps? Yeah, some tables and of course the "jump" caused by 5th gear pinned over an elevation. Tracks where the race is won in the corners, not by getting the most air.

High Lord Gomer · Jul 2, 2004

You old guys can have that dangerous GP stuff, I'll take the safe, slower air route any day!

Besides, there are crazies on TTR125s on those GP tracks and that's just not fair to those of us on 250s!

(BTW, I'm *NOT* kidding about any of this!)

va_yzrider · Jul 2, 2004

I think the compromise is a slightly longer lander with the top rounded off. I hate the peaked landers b/c I really hate watching other people almost bite it hard (it's ok if its me b/c at least I don't get the third person point of view). The jumps are still just as challenging, but not as dangerous if you come up just a little short or overjump a little.

The GP style tracks are cool. A friend of mine is building one right now. I can't wait to see how it turns out. There is one off camber that just keeps going and going and going and going. Someone is going to end up in another county one of these days.

490Dave · Jul 2, 2004

Another case in point, A local track used to have a section called the "six-Pac", a rather short rythem section where on a good day very few could only double it three times and only the best triple it twice. It was a nasty section even for spectators, unless you're into the sound of forks snapping and bones breaking. It is now history, but it took two years of agony to get it removed.

Chili · Jul 2, 2004

Okiewan said:
.. I mentioned to motometal on the phone other day that I think there's a market for old-school GP style tracks. You know the ones. You have to actually know how to turn (everything is NOT a bowl), there are even off-cambers. Jumps? Yeah, some tables and of course the "jump" caused by 5th gear pinned over an elevation. Tracks where the race is won in the corners, not by getting the most air.

We had a track like this added to our circuit last year, beautiful natural terrain in a valley with huge up and down hill sections. Lot's of off camber turns at the bottoms of the hill etc. The kids all moaned about how the track sucked because there was no jumps other than elevation/speed induced ones. Unfortunately the track had some other issues as far as putting on a successful race day and ended up being a one off appearance on the circuit :( .

Our association is really trying to get together with the promoters/track owners to make for safer tracks for all levels. We aren't as fortunate to have riding area's with several different skill levels of tracks so our pro's ride the same track as the little guys. Most of our doubles and triples this year are seeing more of a rounded leading edge on the landing jump.

velosapiens · Jul 2, 2004

i thought it was going to be a rant about how injuries and lawsuits are making tracks all wussified now. heh heh.

i'm with you rv6junkie. i personally love flying through the air, even up to 60' tables and such, but won't jump a dangerous double if it's anywhere close to that big. probably more like 20-30' is my limit, and even then, i'd rather see a table top, or a forgiving double with a longer flatter ramp up to the landing area.

fortunately, only tracks i've ridden (dixon ca, upton wy, truckee ca, delta ut, clubmoto ca) are all pretty sane, and long jumps are either tables, or sane doubles that can be cased without death or dismemberment. i would think fear of lawsuits would make more tracks that way, but what do i know.

mw

Kawidude · Jul 2, 2004

Here's something I've never understood about tracks & jumps: Why can't jumps be split in half? If you have an 8' to 10' wide jump, why can't the right half (for slower riders) have a mellower face and no lip with a nice long landing area, while the left half can be more peaked with a true gap to clear. Wouldn't that satisfy almost everyone?

Jeff Gilbert · Jul 3, 2004

My local mx track has gone to the extreme in the other direction. Everything is tamed down so much that you don't have to let off, it's all "GP" type stuff. Most all of the jumps will give you little more than 6" of air in 5th or 6th gear. Okie would probably love it untill he fell, it's very hard packed dirt and is unforgiving. Before they cut down the jump faces I got the chance to begin working on whips to the point that while in the air over the finish line jump I saw I was headed right toward a big rock where I was to land. I was able to correct and avoid but with the track designed more "safer" I'm not off the ground enough to make any corrections. I'm with HLG on this one, I like slower speed tracks with a little more hang time.

motometal · Jul 3, 2004

no doubt tabletops are the safest type of jump, but many tracks don't have the dirt and the dirt moving equipment to make big jumps and have them all be tabletops. One alternative, a good compromise, is to make the bigger jumps on the track a jump onto a tabletop. So maybe the first half of the distance is just a gap. If you come up short of the downramp (of the tabletop), you won't land too hard because the elevation is higher like a step up. These jumps can still bite you if you come WAY short, so I guess you just have to have at least a basic idea of how fast to go. Usually I will hit it slow just to get a feel for the ramp, and then go for it.

Keep in mind when you go to a new track, some of the "locals" may have had an advantage on you. They may have had the opportunity to do some of the jumps when they were shorter, get used to it, then the jumps were stretched out.

Also, if you case it on a fresh jump, as long as you don't stick and go over the bars, the soft fresh dirt is much more forgiving than it is after it has been rained on, compacted, and sun baked.

Our local area has good safe jumps on the track but just added a section off to the side like the "six pack" described, but more of a "ten pack". Very peaked ramps, with only one short place to land and then on to the next one. They are all a bit different, so you have to memorize where to slow down or gas it for the next one and you don't have but a second or two to prepare before you are in the air again. I'm a bit worried that there will be injuries here.

showtime586 · Jul 3, 2004

We had similar issues here in the heartland, but eventually they seem to rectify themselves.
We had a nice safe track that most everybody loved. The owners kid then spends a week riding out in SoCal, sees the factories private test tracks, and decide their needs to be more like that one. They decided our local riders need to be challenged. Everyone stopped riding there. Now it is basically out of business.
Another big track decided it needed a BIG jumps to challenge our local riders. Step -ups, elevator jumps and doubles gapped in the 50-60 foot range.There last race had a whopping 34 rider turnout. This one is just about in the "out of business" catagorie. Conversely, a smaller track an hours drive away (with small tabletops, small doubles, safe landings) had a 300 rider turnout. You don't need a degree in rocket propulsion to figure this one out.
We have the same problems with the "Jump happy" youth riders as well. Their idea of fun is "airtime", not technique. I think the popularity of Supercross has filtered over into the design of motocross tracks as well.
I have never ridden on a GP type track, so I cannot say if it would appeal to me or not. I am a vet guy who actually likes to jump. I don't mind the big tabletops, or the big doubles as long as the landings are rolled. Peaked takeoffs are fine, peaked landing are not tooo good. IMHO

MikeT · Jul 6, 2004

Face it, none of us are professionals and having unsafe doubles aren't going to make any of us better riders. Having jumps that are table tops and camel backs are all that is needed. Do or die jumps are unnessary and will be the reason most people either get out of the sport or that a track closes down.

rockers109 · Jul 6, 2004

I agree with Mike T the safer the tracks are the longer they will be around. No need for the big doubles or triples you'll get people who will try to jump them knowing full well that they shouldn't be jumping it.Hey Mike I'm down in your neck of the woods it's much nicer here than home.

showtime586 · Jul 6, 2004

To me it is all about having fun. When it ceases to be fun, I will no longer continue to do it. I think that fits most of the folks who are still riding at an adult age.
Our local tracks get caught up in the Loretta Lynn hype about needing more technical tracks, so our local kids will improve and be more competative on a larger scale. I see dangerous tracks as a quick way to run kids away from the sport, not attracting them to it.

XRpredator · Jul 6, 2004

MX is for weenies

High Lord Gomer · Jul 6, 2004

...and non-MX is for those without weenies! :p

muddy226 · Jul 6, 2004

In this country I believe the enabling authority ( ACU ) outlawed doubles and triples many years ago, quite rightly IMO, which is why we have so many tabletops. If you want to show how clever/fast you are, you land on the downslope. If you come up short, the only damage is to pride. At my age, I'd rather have damaged pride than broken bones.

HobRoff · Jul 6, 2004

Fortunatly the few tracks I ride the most at are very safe -- Washougal, Mt. View, and Extreme Moto in Spokane but recently my riding partner since grade school and I checked out another facility and it was disappointing to say the least, mainly just poorly laid out, the jumps were really steep and short with endo's a very real possibility, poor dirt work etc.

In June's addition of Dirt Rider there is an aerial photo of the I-5MX facility and that track looks truly fun, fun, fun and safe. Bummer it is so far away. Strange how some tracks are so perfect and others that just can't get it together as there is a lot of feedback out there.

showtime586 · Jul 6, 2004

I've seen pictures of the "Shoug", and man do they look sweet....:)

HobRoff · Jul 6, 2004

It is! pretty much the same track as when I first started riding there in the '80's. Might be there this Friday for an open practice. Washougal's days may be numbered though as it has really developed around the track and now the neighbors are complaining, county hearings and such. The track has been there for about 30 years, you'd think it would have some seniority but the recent rich emigrants are having they're way. That could be another thread, all the tracks that close up shop.

YZ165 · Jul 6, 2004

Kawidude said:
Here's something I've never understood about tracks & jumps: Why can't jumps be split in half? If you have an 8' to 10' wide jump, why can't the right half (for slower riders) have a mellower face and no lip with a nice long landing area, while the left half can be more peaked with a true gap to clear. Wouldn't that satisfy almost everyone?

A local track around here did that and it SUCKED! The track then becomes one line. If you're in the expert class, everyone goes big, if you are in the beginer class, everyone goes small, if you're somewhere in between, both lines suck. Then if you're slow and try the "BIG" way, the officials bump you up to the next class. It's a catch-22. It does however work out pretty well on practice days. My .02. :bang:

MikeT · Jul 7, 2004

muddy226 said:
In this country I believe the enabling authority ( ACU ) outlawed doubles and triples many years ago, quite rightly IMO, which is why we have so many tabletops. If you want to show how clever/fast you are, you land on the downslope. If you come up short, the only damage is to pride. At my age, I'd rather have damaged pride than broken bones.

I feel the same exact way! :cool:

High Lord Gomer · Jul 7, 2004

Jumps don't screw up people, people screw up when attempting jumps that they shouldn't. Personally, I like doubles. A 60ft double is easier than an 85 foot tabletop and as much, if not more, fun.

I don't like overly peaked landings, but if you have a sufficiently large and sufficiently sloped landing, it is so *soft* when you land it correctly. (or so I hear)

The problem is rarely the track, it is more often people attempting things they shouldn't. SInce these people can't think for themselves, maybe we should protect them by taking away all of the jumps. Better yet, let's just take all of their motorcycles.

Is it me, or are new tracks getting stupid?

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