More confusion on turning

[James51381]

I have only been riding for a few years. I mostly go to Hollister in CA. my question is about putting my weight on the pegs and do i use the handle bar or lean. not all the turns are really sharp, some are almost sweeping, so what peg should i plant? i always feel when i put weight on the outside peg, that i will go outside and go the opposite way of the trail. do i turn with the handle bar or with leaning. i have some experience with street riding. thats why i am asking. its so much easier to get my bike to turn left if i push on my left peg (inside peg). but i will wash out the back end. when i do put weight on the outside peg i feel i have to almost lift up the handlebar with my outside hand, and push down on the inside grip, instead of turning the handle bar (push and pull) I am sure you all are tired of this subject but I am still unclear.
thanks a lot
james

 

[CaptainObvious]

Are you familiar with the term “counter steering”? Counter steering is the ONLY way a motorcycle will turn. It is something you have been doing since you learned to ride a bicycle but understanding the process will make you a MUCH better rider.

At very slow speeds you steer a motorcycle by turning the handlebar in the direction we wish to go. You can only do that at speeds of less than about 5 MPH. At any higher speed you do the exact opposite, whether you realize it or not. For example, assuming you want to turn to the right, you are actually pushing on the right handlebar. This results in the front wheel leaning to the right and, as a result of the lean of the wheel, a turn to the right. This is counter-steering.

There are many forces acting on the motorcycle when you initiate a turn. The wheels of a motorcycle act as big gyroscopes. That is why a bike becomes more stable with speed. When you begin a turn you are displacing the gyroscope (front tire) and the force is exerted in predictable directions. The phenomenon that turns our dirt bikes is called Gyroscopic Precession. This is what happens when a lateral force is applied to the axis of a spinning gyroscope. The spinning gyroscope translates the force vector ninety degrees off the direction of spin. So, if we try to turn our front wheel to the left, the force we use appears as a lateral force forward against the axle on the right side and this is translated into a force that tries to lean the wheel to the right. Similarly, trying to turn the wheel to the right results in the wheel trying to lean to the left.

With this knowledge you can understand that the weight on the pegs doesn’t CAUSE the bike to turn, it simply distributes the weight of the rider in such a way as to not fight the forces acting on the bike. In other words weighing the outside peg assists the gyroscope in turning the bike. It also keeps you in an aggressive stance so you can quickly adjust your weight when accelerating out of the turn.

That’s all I have for now.

 

[James51381]

that is what my dad was trying to teach me when i was riding his street bike. push left go left. etc.... thanks alot i will try that
how long did it take you to get used to it?
thanks
james

 

[CaptainObvious]

Do it once, believe that it actually works, never question it again.

Think about though, you've been doing it since you were 4-years old. Ever watch a kid learning to ride a bicycle, they always fall-off the bike in the direction that they want to go, not the direction they are going.

Now that you know what you are doing, and you aren’t fighting with the bike, you can build off the counter-steering technique.

 

[James51381]

your not kidding about those kids, so i should countersteer in second gear and above? is that a good speed to start with. or do i need t countersteer even in first in a tight turn (no hairpin)?
james

 

[CaptainObvious]

Anything faster than a walking pace will require counter-steering. Remember, you don't have a choice, it's the only way a motorcycle turns. Other might argure against this, but just teach 'em how it's done and they'll believe you.

 

[James51381]

thanks for the comparo..... I will ride with counteer steer without telling my buddies and i will wait for them to ask me "HOW ARE YOU TAKING THOSE TURNS SO FAST?" :)
so if i want to make a left, i put my weight on the right peg, push my left hand foward a little bit and lean the bike over to the left?
thanks
james

 

[SpeedyManiac]

I don't get it. When I want to turn left, I lean the bike left. I have no idea which way I turn the bars. One question about 'counter-steering,' if I do what you say, won't I just wad up and get real intimate with the ground? Thanks.

 

[CaptainObvious]

Speedy, go ahead and try it, then report back. Get yourself going on a straight section of track and push on the left bar. You WILL go left. As a street rider I can't tell you how many times I've heard of riders hitting the very thing they were trying to avoid because they "steered" right into it. Think about it, you see a deer coming across your path from left to right so you quickly streer to the right to avoid the deer. The bike makes a wild turn to the left into the deer. The rider doesn't know what just happened.

Let me know.

 

[High Lord Gomer]

Be careful when you first try counter-steering, especially on the street. The first time I tried it I was surprised by how fast and how much it worked. I almost laid the bike down when I was just trying to make a gentle turn to the offramp.

I do it consciously during the rare occasions that I ride on the street, but I don't even think about it when I'm riding on the dirt. I know that I do it because, as RV6 said, you can't throw the bike into a turn quickly without it.

 

[SpeedyManiac]

Is counter-steering just laying it sideways? On high-speed corners I kick it sideways (push left- turn left) but the rear end kicks out. Is this what you're talking about? Thanks.

 

[FenryHonda]

I thought I'd chime in with my two cents about counter steering.

If you think about it, it will just get confusing. When you try it, just push GENTLY on the bar the first couple times.

You do lean the bike a bit, but countersteering does the real turning. Keith Code has a sport bike set up with an second set of handlebars that are mounted solidly to the frame that he uses to demonstrate just how much countersteering affects the ability to turn a bike.

Now, if I can just stop blowing over the berms.

 

[Chili]

Back when I first started riding street a buddy of mine explained it to me by telling me that essentially all you were doing was giving the bar a little push to help lay the bike over into the lean you wanted and then you rode the turn out.
Having just got back into dirt riding this past summer I hadn't really thought about the fact that I do that subconciously on the dirt as well. I'll have to pass this tip along to Junior I'm sure it will help his cornering speed!

 

[JPIVEY]

Can't add anything to the subject really, except, do be very careful until you get the hang of it, you'll be very surprised what a little counter steer and body english can do to your cornering.

I got in trouble last time I tried to explain this,but what the hell, you can also counter steer in the dirt, if you have drawn out sweeping turns you can weight the left peg to go left and right peg to go right ( while standing ) you'll feel the bike bit equally both front and rear in the soft stuff and on the harder packed crap, if you break lose, you'll drift equally.

Either way be careful till you get the hang of it.

 

[SpeedyManiac]

I went riding today and tried 'counter-steering.' It worked, but only at speed and on not too sharp of corners. I'm going to practice it more, because I was going way faster through turns than I ever have before. It also was more stable and I could hold lines better. Thanks for the tips, now I'll be able to go faster. Do you guys do it on all corners, even sharp ones? Thanks.

 

[rockfordf17]

EXCELLENT info!!! this is only my second post.. but I can see the information at this board is very useful! ill be here a lot:)