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Message: [QUOTE="weimedog, post: 1163594, member: 20655"] The "techology guru's" said that when they designed the first gen Phantom too...and obviously that was the rational for spending all that time developing vectored thrust on both the f-22 and f35...along with the retractable guns. Rationalization is a wonderful thing. Do a little research in the SU & MIG's marketplace..the REST of the world..and unfortunately little skirmishes are more common place than we all wish they were. 40 years? Dog fighting unfortunately has happened within the last few years...and will happen again. Reguardless, these Su-27 thru 37 series planes are awesome, here also with an absolutely amazing pilot. What was he thinking when he did this type of stuff the FIRST time. (Actually there is a documentary on the Pilot who pushed the first Mig-29's into this type of stuff..) [/QUOTE]