Many topics bring up oil and most say to run a full quart of oil in the gearbox. My 04 220R has never been real noisy with the 750ml recommended. Just for giggles I went riding yesterday and changed the oil before I left. Right off the bat I noticed that with a full quart the motor didnt want to rpm like it normally did. It also didnt want to lug on the botton end as well either. Very quickly I realized the extra oil, though minimum was drasticly effecting the inertia of the crank. I pulled the plug, drained it, measured back 800ml, replaced it and took off. Huge difference! I could not tell any difference from the 750 to 800ml range but a huge difference in using a full 950ml (qt) of oil. Okay maybe I didnt have it up to temp being I had 20/50w in it. I came back, added the 150ml to make it a full qt and took off. I gave it plenty of time to come to temp and began thrashing it again. Same thing, Bike did not want to rpm as quick and seemed slugish on the bottom end. Now my mind is working, I have to find out for sure. I drained the case, measured out 800ml of fresh 20/50w oil and fired it up. Once warm I took off. My old bike as I knew it was back. So, Have I lost my mind or has anyone else experienced this? :moon:
QT of OIL IN GEARBOX?
- Thread starter Kwakasaki
- Start date
- Jan 8, 2000
- 3,331
- 1
Kwakasaki said:
Hmmm, you do know that the crank in your bike doesn't ever touch the oil that you put in the GEAR box, right?
I have to believe that the perfomance drain that you associated from excess oil in the gear box is from another source. Afterall, if the gear box had too much oil, it would vent the excess oil out the overflow tube.
tony91
~SPONSOR~
- Jan 30, 2002
- 493
- 0
Hey bud, you're gonna get roasted on this one. In a 2-stroke the crankcase oil doesn't touch the crank. It's lubed by the pre-mix. And, 20-50 is a thicker oil than what's recommended. Don't know what effect that has on performance, but it's certainly unusual. If using auto engine oil, go with 10w/40. It also nay be a good idea to pick up the service manual for your bike and Eric Gorr's book. :cool:
- Thread starter
- #5
Tony,
I do not take it as a roasting, I take it as someone like yourself, that really knows the ins and outs of the 2 strokes, teaching idiots like myself what could possibly be happening. After researching all morning after posting that and seeing the setup of a 2 stroke case I see what you all are talking about. I have run 20/50 since day one but I do use 10/40 in all my other bikes. I will start using that in my bike too now. I am new to two strokes so I appreciate the info. Now back to the question, If the oil is not effecting the crankshaft, why the change in the characteristics of the motor with different quantities? Maybe I should stick to the 4 strokes and drink heavily before launching................. NOT , I love my 220! Thanks for nice scolding guys, thats why i love this site, never a dumb question, just good info for those who are seriously interested and need it.
I do not take it as a roasting, I take it as someone like yourself, that really knows the ins and outs of the 2 strokes, teaching idiots like myself what could possibly be happening. After researching all morning after posting that and seeing the setup of a 2 stroke case I see what you all are talking about. I have run 20/50 since day one but I do use 10/40 in all my other bikes. I will start using that in my bike too now. I am new to two strokes so I appreciate the info. Now back to the question, If the oil is not effecting the crankshaft, why the change in the characteristics of the motor with different quantities? Maybe I should stick to the 4 strokes and drink heavily before launching................. NOT , I love my 220! Thanks for nice scolding guys, thats why i love this site, never a dumb question, just good info for those who are seriously interested and need it.
- Thread starter
- #6
WAIT........Hold the press. I just got home and pulled the manual i bought with my sons KX85.
So to much or too heavy of an oil can not effect the rpms or what I was experiencing because the oil does not come in contact with the crank?
From what I see the clutch assembly that is in the gearbox and submerged in the oil is attached to the crank. So if you restrict the rotation of the clutch assembly it directly effects the crank. I still may be way off base here, someone correct a newcomer.
So to much or too heavy of an oil can not effect the rpms or what I was experiencing because the oil does not come in contact with the crank?
From what I see the clutch assembly that is in the gearbox and submerged in the oil is attached to the crank. So if you restrict the rotation of the clutch assembly it directly effects the crank. I still may be way off base here, someone correct a newcomer.
John Harris
Member
- Apr 15, 2002
- 552
- 0
I am a crazy old man, but I have always thought that oil level effected friction in the gear box clutch to some small degree. I contrast to most riders, I run the minimum oil in my KDX. In fact so little that you have to lean it over a little to see it in the sight glass. I have done this with 4 KDX over almost 20 years with no problems and no more noise than others. (You have to remember that I am old and deaf, as well as daffy.) Conclusion, KDX are very flexible and bullet proof. Do it your way! Just ride a lot. Cheers John
tax cutter
Member
- Nov 6, 2003
- 17
- 0
I missed something. What was the objective of overfilling in the first place?
- Jan 8, 2000
- 3,331
- 1
tax cutter said:
The gearbox on the -H model KDX's can be a little noisy when in neutral. A little extra oil seems to quiet 'em down.
I don't think you're crazy :) or even very far off base ;)
Though I'm a complete bike mechanic newb, Going over the manuals and other materials about the 220 (I have an 04 also) I see it kind of like this...
Normally, the clutch assembly is partially submerged in lubricant (I guess that's why they call it a "wet" clutch) and for something that spins at the high RPM that the clutch assembly must spin, even small variations in lubricant level would have a measurable effect on the force that might resist that motion (oil level)
The only analogy I can think of is a pretty silly one, but remember as a kid in the tub when you splashed by spinning your hands in front of you in a paddle wheel motion? If you turned slowly it didn't matter how deep your hands were in the water, it took the same energy, but if you tried to move your hands as quickly as you could, it got exponentially more difficult the deeper in the water your hands were...
In the clutch case of the 220 I think there is something similar going on with the added slant that I honestly believe that the clutch and the recommended oil level were both arrived at in order to have the clutch spinning freely almost completely OUT of the oil when running at speed. The lubricant would be "slung" all around in the housing and provide good protection and lubrication by just being everywhere in there at once :) Only when returning to idling speed would the bottom of the clutch then be dunked in the oil...
I think that if you overfill too much, even at speed, the clutch can't sling itself free from the oil level and has to "paddle" its way thru the extra resistance of the oil. If a crank was involved, as in a 4stroke bike or car, this would be called "frothing" and involves SIGNIFICANT power reduction, but I think that to a smaller but still measureable degree it happens with the wet clutch, and using heavier oil as in your case, the effect is amplified...
Just rambling now :) but In my case, I use the whole quart, but then again, I'm a newb who probably only uses 20% of the bikes potential, and I've been filling it with a quart almost from day one, so I have little to base a comparison on... Plus I added an aftermarket pipe, silencer, RAD valve, so this perhaps more than counteracts the effect...
But bottom line, I think your observations are valid...
Have a good one!
Feanor
Though I'm a complete bike mechanic newb, Going over the manuals and other materials about the 220 (I have an 04 also) I see it kind of like this...
Normally, the clutch assembly is partially submerged in lubricant (I guess that's why they call it a "wet" clutch) and for something that spins at the high RPM that the clutch assembly must spin, even small variations in lubricant level would have a measurable effect on the force that might resist that motion (oil level)
The only analogy I can think of is a pretty silly one, but remember as a kid in the tub when you splashed by spinning your hands in front of you in a paddle wheel motion? If you turned slowly it didn't matter how deep your hands were in the water, it took the same energy, but if you tried to move your hands as quickly as you could, it got exponentially more difficult the deeper in the water your hands were...
In the clutch case of the 220 I think there is something similar going on with the added slant that I honestly believe that the clutch and the recommended oil level were both arrived at in order to have the clutch spinning freely almost completely OUT of the oil when running at speed. The lubricant would be "slung" all around in the housing and provide good protection and lubrication by just being everywhere in there at once :) Only when returning to idling speed would the bottom of the clutch then be dunked in the oil...
I think that if you overfill too much, even at speed, the clutch can't sling itself free from the oil level and has to "paddle" its way thru the extra resistance of the oil. If a crank was involved, as in a 4stroke bike or car, this would be called "frothing" and involves SIGNIFICANT power reduction, but I think that to a smaller but still measureable degree it happens with the wet clutch, and using heavier oil as in your case, the effect is amplified...
Just rambling now :) but In my case, I use the whole quart, but then again, I'm a newb who probably only uses 20% of the bikes potential, and I've been filling it with a quart almost from day one, so I have little to base a comparison on... Plus I added an aftermarket pipe, silencer, RAD valve, so this perhaps more than counteracts the effect...
But bottom line, I think your observations are valid...
Have a good one!
Feanor
- Jul 3, 1999
- 2,726
- 1
Ambient temperature Vs length of time engine is running (engine and oil temp) and oil weight or viscosity could also come into play in your tub analogy, but Cali, doesn’t get that cold? I never measure the oil, I just put in enough to get to about 70% of the sight glass. This seems to quiet the noise a little and also does not effect performance. The excess noise is IMHO, because of how quiet the KDX is in the first place, I mean we hear the lid-less air box honk!
Oh and just to let you know, I'm the only one that asks dumb questions here, just ask C.C. :p :laugh: ;)
Oh and just to let you know, I'm the only one that asks dumb questions here, just ask C.C. :p :laugh: ;)
