I wasn't sure where to post this... I was curious as to everyone's feelings on this topic. 20 quads were invited and raced at the latest AMA event at Steele City this past weekend. I know dirtbikers and quads for the most part have never gotten along. What did everyone think about this event?? Heard rumors that if the AMA felt this venture successful that it is something that will not be uncommon come next year. How will it be with pro quads now racing the same AMA events as bikes??
Quads at AMA Event
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oldguy
Always Broken
- Dec 26, 1999
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Personally I prefer the quads race on their own day. This weekend was a prime example- the bikes worked up some great ruts and berms in practice and then the quads went out and knocked them all down and then polished the loose dirt off to the track edges. Same happened each time the quads went out after bike motos.
Let the quads race but on their own day when bikes are not.
In Wisconsin (district 16) very few tracks still offer a mixed schedule for this reason
Let the quads race but on their own day when bikes are not.
In Wisconsin (district 16) very few tracks still offer a mixed schedule for this reason
colotowyo499
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- Jun 7, 2007
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Motocross, like other sports of today, must be an ever-changing entity in order to survive. Even though it doesn't get as much t.v. coverage I'd like to see, the reality is spectator and media appeal at the pro level in order to satisfy sponsors. Pro hockey changed rules recently for more fan enjoyment (a.k.a. higher scoring), college football moving the kickoff line up to the 35 this year, etc. This is just the way of the sports world and we may as well make the best of it 'cuz it WILL happen, even in motocross (quads making two-tracks at Washougal). Whatever keeps our sport alive...
A separate day for quads does seem like a good compromise to a strictly two-wheeler like myself.
A separate day for quads does seem like a good compromise to a strictly two-wheeler like myself.
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The riders that were invited are a little more professional than that. Kaw and Suz both had team rigs out there for the Pro quad riders as they do at all ATVA/AMA quad nationals and WPSA/ESPN Events...IndyYZ85 said:
Thank you. That is the kind of feed back I was looking for. I was unfortunate not to make it out to this event. I heard that the track was groomed in between the quads and bikes and that on Sunday the quads went first to avoid dirtbike riders having their berms and whatnot knocked down. Did that not happen??oldguy said:
You know how rumors float. They had talked about doing quads on a different day. I think it was something to do with the time line and the fact they only wanted to add in the pro class.colotowyo499 said:
This was the first time an event like this took place. I dont know what it will entail for the years to come. I was just curious to see some honest opinions from the db side of things.
I am from the quad side of it. I had a few sponsored riders that were invited to race in the event. I wanted to see what the db riders thought. I have alot of friends on 2-wheels and wanted to get some more opinions of it.
If it takes adding quads to mx events to make the sport grow then I'm happy with the sport staying the same size :nener:
Like others have said bikes and quads really dont mix. Quads really just about need different tracks then bikes. A good novice jump on a bike is dangerous for all but the best quad riders. Tight sections on tracks are not good for quads cause they are so wide. Quads totally annihilate berms.
Also, I may be biased but I see a higher number of quad riders that are inconsiderate riders. I'm not saying that all quad riders are inconsiderate but I seem to see more inconsiderate quad riders then I do riders on 2 wheels.
Besides, everyone knows that quads are just bikes with training wheels :)
Like others have said bikes and quads really dont mix. Quads really just about need different tracks then bikes. A good novice jump on a bike is dangerous for all but the best quad riders. Tight sections on tracks are not good for quads cause they are so wide. Quads totally annihilate berms.
Also, I may be biased but I see a higher number of quad riders that are inconsiderate riders. I'm not saying that all quad riders are inconsiderate but I seem to see more inconsiderate quad riders then I do riders on 2 wheels.
Besides, everyone knows that quads are just bikes with training wheels :)
High Lord Gomer
Poked with Sticks
- Sep 26, 1999
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I'm an odd one here. I always liked racing after the quads because they dried the trackout and smoothed it out. Yeah, I know, I should get better at riding ruts.
mkelly...my guess is that you would be amazed (andhumbled) by how good some of those quad riders are. This past weekend I was at Durhamtown Plantation in Georgia and saw a quad rider easily clear one of the biggest jumps on the track. It is a step-up that is probably 60 feet (distance) and 10-12 feet (higher) to get to the top and another 30 or so to land smoothly down the backside. This quad rider cleared it well.
I later saw the rider relaxing near the entrance to the track and she was HOT! Yes, that was a female quad rider that was better and faster than almost all of the bikes out there and she looked as good asa she rode. How about that for breaking a couple of your stereotypes!
mkelly...my guess is that you would be amazed (andhumbled) by how good some of those quad riders are. This past weekend I was at Durhamtown Plantation in Georgia and saw a quad rider easily clear one of the biggest jumps on the track. It is a step-up that is probably 60 feet (distance) and 10-12 feet (higher) to get to the top and another 30 or so to land smoothly down the backside. This quad rider cleared it well.
I later saw the rider relaxing near the entrance to the track and she was HOT! Yes, that was a female quad rider that was better and faster than almost all of the bikes out there and she looked as good asa she rode. How about that for breaking a couple of your stereotypes!
dirt bike dave
Sponsoring Member
- May 3, 2000
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During the webcast, they were talking with one of the top quad riders. He said they were doing 2:17 laps on Saturday. RV was doing like 2:17 laps in the 1st Lites moto! The quad rider acknowledged the track conditions were much better when he was doing 2:17. When the track got better for the bikes, the best bikes were doing 2:10 and under. I would say the top quad riders are pretty fast!
That being said, I don't think they belong at an AMA outdoor MX. Even if they are fun to watch, any damage or alteration to the track is a bad thing.
That being said, I don't think they belong at an AMA outdoor MX. Even if they are fun to watch, any damage or alteration to the track is a bad thing.
flyingfuzzball
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- May 10, 2007
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i guess at this kind of level the riders are more professional but at local tracks quad riders are just obnoxious (did i spell that right??) it has given me a bias for all quad riders. heck at rausch creek at a couple weeks ago there was this smart guy doing smoking burnouts in his trailer.
i guess i dont mind if its 2 different days. and as long as the price for tickets stays the same i think its cool.
maybe if they made it 2 days and you could buy a 1 or 2 day ticket.
i guess i dont mind if its 2 different days. and as long as the price for tickets stays the same i think its cool.
maybe if they made it 2 days and you could buy a 1 or 2 day ticket.
justalonewolf007
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- Apr 30, 2007
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In the series I race for, we have about four heats of quads per moto. There's only been one time where I've been a little disappointed with the quads, and that was because the track got a little too chewed up for me to get traction enough to build the speed up for one set of doubles. However, when I talked with some of the riders, I found out the quads were having the same problems with that section as well.
As for the track conditions, I definitely understand some of the issues one might have with them beating down some of the ruts and lines, but aren't they supposed to change quite a bit? After all, if they didn't, motocross would rather be a lot like nascar or something...(yes that was an extreme analogy)...
Also, as a beginning racer, I actually appreciate how the quads make the whoops a little more forgiving to those of us with lesser developed skills. They also make kickers and step ups much more user friendly as well.
I must be lucky, as "our" quad riders are actually some pretty awesome guys (and girls at one point too)! I always have someone to help me load up the little CR, talk me over a set of jumps, or even let me pull a chair into their shade...
I agree with the generalized opinion. I feel that in more important or larger races, the events should be set up to allow a little track grooming between quads and bikes.
As for the track conditions, I definitely understand some of the issues one might have with them beating down some of the ruts and lines, but aren't they supposed to change quite a bit? After all, if they didn't, motocross would rather be a lot like nascar or something...(yes that was an extreme analogy)...
Also, as a beginning racer, I actually appreciate how the quads make the whoops a little more forgiving to those of us with lesser developed skills. They also make kickers and step ups much more user friendly as well.
I must be lucky, as "our" quad riders are actually some pretty awesome guys (and girls at one point too)! I always have someone to help me load up the little CR, talk me over a set of jumps, or even let me pull a chair into their shade...
I agree with the generalized opinion. I feel that in more important or larger races, the events should be set up to allow a little track grooming between quads and bikes.
YZ165
YZabian
- May 4, 2004
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The local MX has separated the days on which quads and bikes practice, and race. Seems to be working well. There is far less negative talk in the pits now. Also, it works better because it gives the bikes one less practice session to wait through, and on quad practice days, those guys can run uninterrupted all day..not to mention 3 or 4 less motos on race day for us, and a morning only race day for them.
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- #13
mtk said:
No offense in posting this, this was the type of ignorance I was hoping to avoid. All of the ATVA Nationals are AMA sanctioned along with alot of local districts that you have to be an AMA member to race and compete in that are strictly quads. So there are quads at ALOT of AMA events... This was the first dirtbike AMA event that quads attended.
Just seeing what everyone had to say and appreciate the information as it is being relayed to different people.
I understand db and quads both having different track conditions. That is why I was under the impression they were suppose to be grooming tracks and having the quads run earlier than the bikes on Sunday to prevent issues like that from happening. I think the Pro Riders we had at Steele City were turning quick enough lap times and hitting jumps that were impressive to alot of the guys on 2 wheels I knew racing out there. I dont know if this is something that everyone is quite ready for yet. It was a test to see how it went. The quad riders that attended this event were as professional as they come.
- Aug 2, 2000
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Damage or alteration? What is this? Supercross?dirt bike dave said:
Come on, man, alterations in the track and "damage" is what MX is all about. Adapting and overcoming a dynamic, ever-changing terrain!
I wouldn't mind watching the couches race. All the manufacturers make a 450cc performance quad these days (well, Polaris makes a KTM525 powered machine) so we'd just as well see 'em out there.
High Lord Gomer said:
I realize that the top quad riders are very talented. But from my experience talented quad riders are few and far between. In the local race circuit I've only seen around 5 really talented quad riders..... and even the top quad riders cant keep up with the local B mx riders.
Its possible that its the type of tracks that I ride on, like I said before quad riders and mx riders really have different requirements for tracks.
In a perfect world there would be a track for mx beginners and quads and a separate track for intermediate and pro mx riders.
dirt bike dave
Sponsoring Member
- May 3, 2000
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XRpredator said:
My point is the damage and alteration that quads cause is different than what the bikes cause. I want the winner be the guy who can best get around berms and braking bumps that are made by bikes. That's 'natural terrain' MX to me.
i have been racing "couches" as you guys call them for 8 years. Been doing db for a whopping 4 months. The difference between them is simple. On a db, you can haul a$$ around corners, getting low to ground and holding it open as you leave. you dont have as much traction as a quad, but you can lean. that makes it faster. the faster you go through a corner means you can hit that big triple only the db can clear. quads arent that much slower acceleration wise.
riding a quad is harder than most of you guys will admit, you cant turn on them...simple as that. when you ride a quad you try to spin out the rear tires around a corner, thus powersliding. if you dont slide you will get up on two tires and that will slow you down. on a dirtbike, you try to limit tire spin. quads also have more weight. a db weighs 200-230 lbs tops. a quad is at least a 400 lb beast that wants to go straight, like a snowmobile if any of you have ridden them in a "mx" track.
I started riding db to trail ride, as simple as that. they are smaller and lighter. Much easier through trails with friends.
now putting the two together would be a great thing in my opinion, but db'ers hate it. I dont know what db'ers have against quads, so the track is different, so what? if you complain about the track changing, you should be doing dirt oval or something without jumps and dirt. MX is meant to see who can adapt every week or maybe even every moto if quads are allowed. If you complain too much, maybe you should sell you dirt machine and get a rode bike. bringing the two together means more money, which means our sport will grow.
mx has gotten a bad rep over the years. maybe this is what we need to change it. the public hates us, maybe if we got along we could double the fighting power. Its like fighting a war. you can have two small armys(quads and db'ers) fighting a large army(the public). you cant make too much of a dent unless you combine all of your man power. The AMA has the right idea, just no one wants to admit it...
If anyone is ever in central mass and whats to ride a quad on a mx track, you can ride mine. you just gotta show up!
riding a quad is harder than most of you guys will admit, you cant turn on them...simple as that. when you ride a quad you try to spin out the rear tires around a corner, thus powersliding. if you dont slide you will get up on two tires and that will slow you down. on a dirtbike, you try to limit tire spin. quads also have more weight. a db weighs 200-230 lbs tops. a quad is at least a 400 lb beast that wants to go straight, like a snowmobile if any of you have ridden them in a "mx" track.
I started riding db to trail ride, as simple as that. they are smaller and lighter. Much easier through trails with friends.
now putting the two together would be a great thing in my opinion, but db'ers hate it. I dont know what db'ers have against quads, so the track is different, so what? if you complain about the track changing, you should be doing dirt oval or something without jumps and dirt. MX is meant to see who can adapt every week or maybe even every moto if quads are allowed. If you complain too much, maybe you should sell you dirt machine and get a rode bike. bringing the two together means more money, which means our sport will grow.
mx has gotten a bad rep over the years. maybe this is what we need to change it. the public hates us, maybe if we got along we could double the fighting power. Its like fighting a war. you can have two small armys(quads and db'ers) fighting a large army(the public). you cant make too much of a dent unless you combine all of your man power. The AMA has the right idea, just no one wants to admit it...
If anyone is ever in central mass and whats to ride a quad on a mx track, you can ride mine. you just gotta show up!
oldguy
Always Broken
- Dec 26, 1999
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You make good points but in the end quads and bikes need different track conditions and the quads deteriorate the bike conditions
I don't believe anyone said they were easier or harder they are different is allshawnyd said:
exactly why they destroy good lines set up by bikes. The bikes create ruts and berms that speed up the racing thus making it more competitive. the quads come out and powerslide through the corners and remove or alter. some days this makes the track less safe for bikes- I want to see fast but safe conditions. if it is a hard pack track and you add in rain or waterers you now create slick corners.
The track should evolve and develope new lines but why encourage good lines being destroyed? As I said ealier last Sunday at the race we were at they did run all the bike classes then put the quads onto the track. when the quads started the track was rutted and bermed- when they finished the track was smooth with very little loose dirt on top of now polished hard pack. The rest of the day the lines just never redeveloped because all that was left was the polished clean hardpack. If the track had re groomed eventually lines would develope but without the quads in there the ruts and dirt would have still been there.
I am not saying quads should go away just they should stay away from bike race day. Give them thier own day to race and develope a fast exciting track advetageous to them
you loose me there The AMA is doing such a dismal job of leading they are doing as much damage as anyone (and this is not in relation to this particular thread)
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- #19
oldguy said:
See I am not sure what the AMA is trying to accomplish. Because technically quads do have they own day and races. The ATVA is a AMA sanctioned national quad series that has been around for a while. So we have had our own races and nationals at the same tracks that the db's ride on.
I do have to agree that quads and dirtbikes have their own track conditions. Its the same for me when I am out racing and choosing the best line. So I do understand that lines are built and cornering on a db and cornering on a quad are TOTALLY different. The db's build different berms and lines in corners and I know that is where they use them the most.
This is something the AMA is trying to do for I think just the Pro quads. I dont we will be seeing them run amateur classes on the days before sunday like they do dirtbikes. As long as the tracks are kept they way they are suppose to Id like to see quads at the AMA outdoor races. They were suppose to groom the tracks after the quads to keep all the guys on 2 wheels happy. As long as everyone is happy, I dont see a problem with it.
Moto Squid
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oldguy said:
I like the idea that Zambons is doing...run through the bike practice and two motos then regroom and let the quads do their thing. Seems like a great way to keep everyone happy. Is it just me or are there less quads at the district races this year vs. previous ones??
oldguy
Always Broken
- Dec 26, 1999
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Squid I think you are correct in the dwindling numbers but it may also be due to quads having their own points series so they often do not need to be there on bike days
The track where I am a member has always had a no quads rule no matter what day it is and I think more tracks are leaning this way
As this thread from the district 16 site today show
http://www.wisconsinmx.com/FORUMS/viewtopic.php?t=1142
The track where I am a member has always had a no quads rule no matter what day it is and I think more tracks are leaning this way
As this thread from the district 16 site today show
http://www.wisconsinmx.com/FORUMS/viewtopic.php?t=1142
oldguy
Always Broken
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I wasn't answerring you :coocoo: If you took the time you would see I was responding to a post from MotoSquid :)crossroadsmx said:
Now I will be responding to you- Quads in any position in the race order just are not conducive to bikes lines. I can adapt to just about any situation but I still prefer quads to race on their own days
JD_MXRacer
Member
- Nov 27, 2006
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i dont like 4 wheelers and bikes running together. at a track i went to where they did run them together. the bikes would make awesome ruts then the fourwheelers would mow them down. also they kick up all the loose dirt off the track so it is so slick i fell twice from the slick track. also they water the track 2x as much because of all the dust. which is bad for me because i dont like it wet like that im still a beginner to racing.
wardy
2005 Lori Nyland Award Winner
- Nov 12, 1999
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ATVA and AMA pro racing are two completely different animals. 4-Wheel "PRO" events are still under the amatuer umbrella or at least they were last i checked. Its' always been an issue with many at us at AMA since they assume they are "pro" but really are not.
Going to this bike/quad pro day. MX nationals are having trouble with turn out? Or are they just experimenting with some different things. I much rather see doug gust and fellow fast boys doing a couple motos, then bringing in some FMX stuff and double back flip deals. Those pro quad riders race most of the national tracks just on different days. There are alot of "not so pure" old MX bike riders who race and ride quads, although I don't see the comparison and don't know that I could, there are many that do.
ON the local level we have to run on the same day, same time, since there are not enought quads for their own race series. But some tracks in out district don't run them at all, and others have special programs, IE: running all quads and 50cc classes early in the morning, reprepping the track and then doing the bike program, (which I like) since it's a 11am practice 11:30 am race program for big bikes. They run like 9 motos and 3-4 your done.
Going to this bike/quad pro day. MX nationals are having trouble with turn out? Or are they just experimenting with some different things. I much rather see doug gust and fellow fast boys doing a couple motos, then bringing in some FMX stuff and double back flip deals. Those pro quad riders race most of the national tracks just on different days. There are alot of "not so pure" old MX bike riders who race and ride quads, although I don't see the comparison and don't know that I could, there are many that do.
ON the local level we have to run on the same day, same time, since there are not enought quads for their own race series. But some tracks in out district don't run them at all, and others have special programs, IE: running all quads and 50cc classes early in the morning, reprepping the track and then doing the bike program, (which I like) since it's a 11am practice 11:30 am race program for big bikes. They run like 9 motos and 3-4 your done.
If tracks let the quads race first and last is the least they should do. Personally I do not understand why anybody would want to race something that wide on an mx track,what next,sand crabs? The track should be 3 times as wide,some of the most vicious wrecks I have seen were quads. The day starts with a well groomed track. The track develops from the racers. Ruts,braking and acceleration bumps develop. Small almost imperceptible grooves develop into sweet lines. Every corner is different. Not if you go after the quads,every corner is the same,flat from inside to the dust berm on the outside! What happened to the challenge?