"SOLD OUT of 250 2-strokes"

[2-Strokes 4-ever]

After hearing the MX AMA amateur class changes (250cc 2 & 4 stroke), I was thinking....... 250f riders will mainly be up-and-comers (stepping up from 80's) but tons of riders are going to run out and buy a 2-stroke to bring home the cash and trophys.
Called my dealer to order some parts yesterday and was chatting with the parts manager about just this subject. He said "yea, we've sold a boat load of 250 2-strokes lately, and can't hardly find any now."
Boy, I'm looking forward to a return of 2-stroke R&D!

 

[IndyMX]

Unless they run them in the pro ranks, don't count on much R&D.

 

[SpeedyManiac]

It depends how sales do. No motorcycle company has been successful by only catering to the pro ranks (what do most pros think of stock bikes? power is too tame and suspension is too soft for them, but perfect for most average riders). It would be great if the two-strokes got some more R&D, but I won't hold my breath for any of the japs to upgrade their bikes. They're too focused on making millions on thumper parts.

 

[2-Strokes 4-ever]

"Too focused on making thumper parts."
Agreed......BUT, as far as 250f's, will there be a huge decline in sales? They're good bikes for off-road....... perhaps the WR's, and X's will now be the main 250f sales. They aren't run so hard and require less maintainance and dollars than a high rpm MXer.

 

[atkkid250]

250's

i am still thinking that the 250 pingers are still the best bikes. but i am biased so what do i know. i myself am noticing more and mroe 250's being sold as well. did they stop making them? i thought they did this year but never got it confirmed. bummer if they did. atk still makes 2 strokes though, just came out awhile ago with their 700 and 620 and their feared 50 2 strokes haha

 

[SpeedyManiac]

"Too focused on making thumper parts."
Agreed......BUT, as far as 250f's, will there be a huge decline in sales? They're good bikes for off-road....... perhaps the WR's, and X's will now be the main 250f sales. They aren't run so hard and require less maintainance and dollars than a high rpm MXer.

I disagree with the point on they're good offroad bikes. I took a ride on a CRF450X and wasn't impressed. Heavier and less power (including bottom end) than my Gasser 250 two-stroke. That said, for cruising around on back roads I wouldn't mind a 450 thumper since the lubrication is not linked to throttle opening.

 

[2-Strokes 4-ever]

250f's

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Only a tiny percentage of the MX bikes sold are ever raced. I wouldn't hold my breath expecting major changes just because some local guys decide to race two-strokes.

 

[IndyMX]

Only a tiny percentage of the MX bikes sold are ever raced. I wouldn't hold my breath expecting major changes just because some local guys decide to race two-strokes.

Pretty much my thinking. No real ROI for them that way..

 

[2-Strokes 4-ever]

I don't get it. Wouldn't "some local guys" throughout 50 states add up to quite a few? Don't you suppose the slower-motored 250f riders would get tired of the disadvantage and buy one too? Come on........ there's a lot of MX 250f owners getting tired of the big bucks involved in racing one. It's going on around here. People are going to be looking for ways to actually be able to afford to race/ride. Costs me $160 to fill my truck up.......gotta make up for it somewhere.

 

[YamaB]

I ride orange, so I'm used to the latest in 2-stroke technology since they are the only ones still actively persuing 2-stroke performance. If you look at the grid in any of our local offroad races, nearly 50% of the bikes are 2-strokes (mostly orange, but also a fair share of blue and some green/red/yellow). Hell, there is a waiting list if you want to by a new ktm 300 or 250 xc/xcw smoker locally...

I still prefer a big 4t for mx, but nothing beats a smoker in the woods. Since I ride/race 90% woods, my 300 smoker is like a dream come true (also have a 4t sx in the garage, but LOVE the 300)...

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Come on........ there's a lot of MX 250f owners getting tired of the big bucks involved in racing one. It's going on around here.

You seem to be missing the point. Racers are a very small part of the sales picture. The majority of these bikes NEVER see a race, so things like the relative cost to race one versus another, tends to be irrelevant in terms of sales impact.

Non racers, and the guys who just race one in a while will buy the bike that they have the most fun riding, and they are the bulk of the buyers.

 

[2-Strokes 4-ever]

I see your point, and I guess I don't look outside the box I'm in. You are in a motorcycle related repair/research business correct? Do you see the non-racer having the valvetrain maintainance and repair issues that a racer does?

 

[wake_rider]

I ride orange, so I'm used to the latest in 2-stroke technology since they are the only ones still actively persuing 2-stroke performance. If you look at the grid in any of our local offroad races, nearly 50% of the bikes are 2-strokes (mostly orange, but also a fair share of blue and some green/red/yellow). Hell, there is a waiting list if you want to by a new ktm 300 or 250 xc/xcw smoker locally...

I still prefer a big 4t for mx, but nothing beats a smoker in the woods. Since I ride/race 90% woods, my 300 smoker is like a dream come true (also have a 4t sx in the garage, but LOVE the 300)...

What about Gasgas, and Yamaha? Both are still pursuing r&d in their 2 stroke programs as well. You sound like another KTM snob that has more pocketbook than ability or skill! (btw, I'm just messing with you. Just because most other KTM riders have no skill doesn't mean you fall in the same category!!) :nener: I ride with a few people on 300 exc's and I really am not at all a fan of them. They don't have near the 'hit' of a 250 smoker, but they do have a good amount more of torque. Myself and a buddy on a kx250 spank them all pretty bad, but they definitely are faster than they used to be since they bought the 300's.

Now, I would be interested in the gasgas ec300. I've done some reading on them and everyone that compared them to the 300 exc's said they had all the torque of the exc, but with the hit of a 250 smoker mx'r. If we had a gas gas dealer nearby, I'd like to take one for a spin...

 

[2-Strokes 4-ever]

I think it all depends on the terrain you ride in. "Hit" is NOT a good thing when it's tight and slippery. In those conditions a friendly delivery will get you to the end of the trail quicker. Torque let's you ride a gear high through the truly tough stuff. A Gas Gas is the perfect weapon for these conditions. If you want "hit" you won't like the Gasser.

 

[theKDX200rider]

Anyone hear of Yamaha's new "secret motor", just a normal two stroke, that they are going to put in their race bikes to race against to four-strokes.

 

[XRpredator]

Anyone hear of Yamaha's new "secret motor", just a normal two stroke, that they are going to put in their race bikes to race against to four-strokes.

it's electric

 

[MOTO ON RM250]

electric? im interested tell me more about this so called "secret motor"

 

[XRpredator]

it's electrical

 

[Rich Rohrich]

it's electrical

... but is electricity involved? :whoa:

 

[XRpredator]

... but is electricity involved? :whoa:

it's a secret, that's why they call it a secret motor

 

[Rich Rohrich]

it's a secret, that's why they call it a secret motor

Double secret probation style, gotcha. ;)

 

[CJG]

My boss is looking for a 250 for his son because he says racing the four strokes is getting too expensive(he just spent $1,500 getting his sons 150F motor fixed). He says he hasn't been able to find a 250 two stroke sitting on a dealership floor anywhere. 250F's, however, are really easy to find. Maybe it's because dealers ordered a lot more 250F's, I don't know. I suspect the 250F may be on the way out thanks to the new AMA rules and the high maintenance costs of the little F's. What may save the250F, aside from what Rich is talking about re: non-racers buying most of the bikes sold and typically only buying what they see the pros riding(I think this is what you're talking about, right Rich, please correct me if I'm being presumptuous), is the fact that they're easier for beginners and novices to ride than the much more powerful and demanding 250 two-strokes. Especially for the younger riders who have never been on a two-stroke bigger than an 85.

Of course folks should take my opinions with a grain of salt, since I'm a crotchety old fart who's been riding in the dirt for 31 years and has only personally owned one four stroke(which I absolutely despised). By the way, I think there is something wrong with my RM250. Sometimes when it's hot and I shut the bike off, or stall it on the trail, it takes two kicks(instead of the usual one) to get it to start. What's wrong with it? Just kidding, poking a little fun at the four strokers out there. :p Please don't kick my butt with your freakishly muscular right legs. :rotfl:

 

[2-Strokes 4-ever]

^ :laugh: ^
Boy do I feel stupid. My dad always use to tell me........"Engage brain before puting mouth in gear." To think I asked Rich basically: "confirm to me all the problems with the 250fs." (in a previous unanswered question in this thread) Why would that ever happen when you make money working on them. duh.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

^ :laugh: ^
Boy do I feel stupid. My dad always use to tell me........"Engage brain before puting mouth in gear." To think I asked Rich basically: "confirm to me all the problems with the 250fs." (in a previous unanswered question in this thread) Why would that ever happen when you make money working on them. duh.

While he was at it your Dad should have told you what mine told me, "check your facts ".

I don't make my living or generate any income working on 250Fs or any other motorcycle engines so I could care less what people buy. Whether they break or live forever my interest is still the same, basic research doing failure analysis with my buddy Eric Gorr and trying to come up with better ways to build reliable affordable horsepower. I will admit it's always my hope that what I learn can benefit Eric's business in some way, but other than that, there isn't a mercenary component to what I post. Your question didn't get answered directly because I wasn't following this thread that closely, and honestly I've answered the question time and again. I guess the SEARCH function must be disabled.

Sorry to ruin your conspiracy theory.:)

aside from what Rich is talking about re: non-racers buying most of the bikes sold and typically only buying what they see the pros riding(I think this is what you're talking about, right Rich, please correct me if I'm being presumptuous)

The reason I think most people who don't care about AMA racing will choose a 250F or a 450F has to do with them being for most people, easier to ride. I think that holds true for a large segment of riders, not just novices. For me and for a lot of people they are just more fun to ride.

I don't think the bike ridden by some guy in an SX race has much if any impact on real world sales. If it did, CRF250s & 450s would not be the perennial best sellers. Frankly, I'm surprised the OEMs put so much money in SX & MX racing. Suzuki spent a fortune and Ricky won a lot of races on an RMZ450, but people still ran to their Honda dealer and bought CRF450s in droves.

No question someone who seriously races a 250F or 450F will spend more than they would on a comparable two-stroke. Only a dunce would try and argue that point, but the misinformation and BS routinely shoveled by Luddites and ill-informed two-strokes zealots is laughable. I've done enough work with both two-strokes and four to be able to separate the truth from the moronic BS, and the BS is rampant. Everything from they blow up every race, to you never have to do anything but change the oil. Never underestimate the willingness of people to be lead down the wrong path.

For the average rider, the cost difference between a two-stroke and a good Japanese four-stroke (CRF, YZF) will be negligible over the life of the bike IF AND ONLY IF , proper routine maintenance is performed.

I rode my 2002 CRF450 twice (sometimes 3 times) a week on an SX track for two years, and then rode it playing supermoto in the local industrial park a couple of times a month for another year. I checked the valves regularly, but it took nearly 3 full seasons time before I had enough valve movement to matter. I rebuilt the cylinder head with stainless steel Kibblewhite parts and don't expect to have to do the valves again for 300 hours or so. The crank was still in excellent shape, so it will stay in there for another season.

In that time I should have put a couple of sets of rings in, and a piston to maintain full power, but the thing makes enough power stock that even with tired rings it's plenty powerful for me on a hardpacked track like I was riding. That and I wanted to see what the parts would look like knowing the maintenance and rpm levels the engine was regularly subjected to.

For reference, here's a 9 minute slice of typical laps and rpm ranges that the bike spent the bulk of it's life in.

So to hopefully answer your question, the RMZ/KXF 250s are unreliable junk, but all the CRFs and YZFs have proven to be very reliable and mostly trouble-free for the average rider.

Regular valve checks, maybe a top end once a year and a few model specific high wear items are all most people (non-racers) will need for the first couple of years. Some will require valve replacement after two seasons, but upgrading to high quality springs and stainless steel valves like the Kibblewhite parts makes that a non-issue going forward.

Fast guys who are practicing a couple days a week and racing on the weekend, just need to up the intervals. Regular top ends, and valve springs once a year to be safe. That's nothing new, it was pretty much the same way with two-strokes (500s aside). Riders in those days just didn't get smacked as hard for being morons and ignoring maintenance.

They can be more expensive to own, but I think it routinely gets blown out of proportion. If people would quit treating them like XRs and do some scheduled maintenance they would be far better off.

Dave Hollub (oldguy) has had his very fast son Eric racing on four-strokes (250 & 450) for long enough to prove the validity of this approach. Eric Gorr and I have dealt with lots of other guys who approached it the way Dave has and they have had similar good results. The big honking blow-ups are more fun to talk about and make for some really compelling macro photos but the reality is they are usually the result of poor maintenance practices or just general ignorance about what wears out and when on a 13,500 rpm race motor.

Wear is directly proportional to time spent at rpm. Increase the time or the rpm and things wear out faster.
As a result fast guys usually wear stuff out sooner than slow guys, and four-strokes break harder if you taunt the maintenance gods. No mystery there.