This is Ridiculous!

WoodsRider · Aug 2, 2002

At the last two club meetings there has been discussion about setting aside an area of our club's property for those riders who want to jump. Unfortunately the area that was first designated became a safety hazzard so the trail commitee promptly closed it off. Several types of barriers were installed to prevent riding/jumping in this area, but they have been knocked down. Now some members want to rent equipment to maintain a MX track on the property.

There were also two places where an old logging road crossed one of the easier trails. To avoid a serious collision trees were dropped across the logging road. Evidently this angered some of the quad riders (yes, our club does allow quads) as they can no longer go bombing down this road without having to slow down and go around the logs yet the trail riders can bomb right across the road.

The whole point is that club membership has grown by leaps and bounds in the last year. ATV registration is up 41% in NY this year alone. All these people need places to ride. They can join our club for around $60 the first year and $30 each year after that or they can go to one of the local motocross tracks for $25 a day.

We are a TRAIL RIDING club. It even says so in our name. Yet people join and want a motocross track, places to jump and roads to ride up and down going WFO. High speed trails and a motocross track will no doubt result in more injuries. I got a bad feeling about all this. :think:

CanadianRidr · Aug 2, 2002

a motocross track will no doubt result in more injuries

I see your point, but skimming in and out of trees in unknown territory is WAY more dangerous than a wide open track where you know each and every lip and face, rut and turn.

Woods is a new ball game every time, just last month a local riding bud of mine broke his back after he hit a stump hidden under the grass, roots.

Don't get me wrong, I think you wood riders that rail through the trees are nuts, but I think it will always be more dangerous than MX. :cool:

MXbabe · Aug 2, 2002

Originally posted by WoodsRider
They can join our club for around $60 the first year and $30 each year after that or they can go to one of the local motocross tracks for $25 a day.

Maybe that's why they're joining your club. It's a lot cheaper to join your club then to ride at the local track. Maybe they figure if enough MX'ers join they can get a track built.

I ride mostly tracks so I don't see a problem but that is my opinion.

MrLuckey · Aug 2, 2002

I can't disagree more C-Rider. Look at all the serious injuries that occur on the track VS the woods. keep in mind that this is just from my experience but I don't think I know anyone personally that has been 'seriously' hurt in the woods (a couple collarbones and small things but nothing huge). On the other hand I look around at people I know who MX and they are getting busted up right and left. I am mainly talking about people I know from DRN (I've met somewhere around 400-500 DRN'rs). Woods guys seem to always come out with lots of small dings while MX guys may not get a scratch for months but then WHAM, a BIG TIME injury.

RM_guy · Aug 2, 2002

That great Bill!! Let me know when you get the MX track in and I'll come up and ride :p

CanadianRidr · Aug 2, 2002

Well a lot of it is in my experience. I guess when you ride woods at any time if your front end washes out you can kiss a tree. On a track you just take a dirt sample and brush it off.

But out of the 500 drn people you know, how many of them ride MX vs woods? I think on a equal ratio the woods injury's may be worse, but I dunno. Im just pulling this from my experience that aint as much as some of yours.

Layton · Aug 2, 2002

Originally posted by CanadianRidr

I see your point, but skimming in and out of trees in unknown territory is WAY more dangerous than a wide open track where you know each and every lip and face, rut and turn.

Sorry but I don't agree with you. In fact just reading the injury reports here on DRN shows many more riders getting hurt on MX tracks than in the woods.

(Rant ON)
In theory you are possibly correct BUT now days MX tracks have turned into SX tracks where everyone tries to do the triples. Unfortunatly for them they aren't quite as good at jumping as they think they are. In fact most of the mx riders spend too much time learning to jump and not enough time learning proper braking and throttle control.
(Rant Off)

Just my 2 cents worth. :)

holeshot · Aug 2, 2002

Originally posted by TTRGuy
....... I don't think I know anyone personally that has been 'seriously' hurt in the woods.......Woods guys seem to always come out with lots of small dings while MX guys may not get a scratch for months but then WHAM, a BIG TIME injury.

Don't you think that's stretching it just a bit?

To me, a motocross track looks like kiddies playground compared to woods/trail riding. In the "woods" you have trees to hit, branches to impale you, sharp rocks to tenderize your body, drop offs and, of course, riders coming at you in the opposite direction.

From my viewpoint, woods/trailriders look like a bunch of crazed, death-defying lunatics who think they're immortal - and I wanna join in. :)

CanadianRidr · Aug 2, 2002

In fact just reading the injury reports here on DRN shows many more riders getting hurt on MX tracks than in the woods.

Layton you need to learn how to read into statistics a bit further. You may read more MX injury's but lets just say you have 200 MX riders go out on sunday and 50 woods riders. There can still be more MX injuries but technically be less on a per capita ratio.

Like holeshot said, rocks, twigs, logs, potholes, foreign objects, drunk quaders, trees and other goodies is too nuts!! So why do I keep racing the local H.S? I dunno, everyone needs a little insanity.

If we want to look at meaningless stat's at my last H.S 3 riders had broken legs, one kid knocked himself out (that I had to help VERY SCARY), 1 broken arm, and I think that was it?
And the last provincial MX I was at one kid broke his ankle. The ambulence driver said that it was a good day :)

woodsrider, im sorry did I open a new can or worms in your thread? :eek:

truespode · Aug 2, 2002

Let me preface this by saying I prefer to ride woods but prefer to race MX.

I have found racing MX to be safer for me overall. I have gotten hurt worse in the woods than on an MX course. But that is just me. I'm not saying that is the norm. I had one hit with my knee to a tree take longer to heal than being ran over by Wrench during an MX race.

I do agree that the opportunity for serious injury is higher in MX but feel that in my personal experience that woods riding has provided me with more injuries overall.

However, the South Carolina Off-Road Enthusiasts have an OHV area in Sumter, SC that we maintain with the help of the local Enduro Club. There are 3 loops. One 2 mile, one 8 mile and one 9 mile section. It is a great trail riding opportunity with lots of sand whoops yet it is very well maintained.

Also there is an MX track that the club helps maintain. It is a fun track and has been a great source for getting others to help with SCORE. There is a small kids track too.

Both entities can co-exist very well together. A lot of HS incorporate parts of an MX track so places like this allow for a great deal of practice variation.

However, having said all that... if the rules of the club or bylaws or whatever say that it only allows Trailriders then those that join have to respect that. If it is just a tradition then maybe some compromise can be worked out as things change.

I agree to keeping a Trailriding club only a Trailriding club. However, I will say that if you do work for a compromise you can find great common ground that can prove to be highly successful.

Ivan

MrLuckey · Aug 2, 2002

Geez so many people to reply to :) I definitely agree that woods guys are nuts (I love trees) and I get hurt a LOT, but they are relatively minor injuries compared to the injuries I see MX guys with. AJ, Thump, BSwift, MX547,Milk_KX250, TX426 etc.

I would love to know the ratio of DRN'rs - MX vs Woods but I am "GUESSING" that out of the people I actually know, its pretty even. If anything there are probably more woods/trail riders.

For me it seems that the BIG injury is just waiting to catch up to all the MX guys, maybe not today or tomorrow....... Take (name left out) for example - somewhat new to MX, no serious injuries yet but how long before he comes up short on a big double?

Ivan said it very well:
"I do agree that the opportunity for serious injury is higher in MX but feel that in my personal experience that woods riding has provided me with more injuries overall."

More # of injuries in the woods - more serious ones in MX.

holeshot - what do you think is stretching it? I agree that probably the biggest fear I have on the trail is the oncoming rider.

I could probably get around a track faster if you'd throw some trees and water out there maybe take out the jumps, and... :aj:

WoodsRider · Aug 2, 2002

No problem!

First of all any type of woods riding is dangerous, but most woods riders learn to deal with trail obstacles like blow downs, rocks, roots, mud as well as trees. Making trails wider and faster makes them more dangerous especially if they are two-way trails. Yet, as Layton pointed out, most of those riders who want to jump have little experience and simply want to bust big. Unfortunately they usually end up busting themselves.

There’s definitely a cost savings in joining our club vs. going to a MX track this is why we’re are looking at raising dues for next year. Again we are a trail riding club. The land was bought for building trails for riding. If you want to go out and bust big air then go to one of the several MX tracks in the area or start your own club and buy your own land.

I’m not trying to alienate a segment of the riding population, it just that we have just under 300 acres. There aren’t a whole lot of opportunities for trail riding in the area.

Tod · Aug 2, 2002

I'd rather spend all day crashing going 10mph on a difficult enduro route than splat once after flyin' off some big mx jump.

biglou · Aug 2, 2002

You guys need to take lessons from me and Team: No-Talent Ass Clown! We'll show ya how to roll any double, whoop section, etc.
Low-n-slow! ;)

JuliusPleaser · Aug 2, 2002

Woods. . .you guys need to jack up your membership fees. The cheapest trail club in central Alabama charges $300 annually.

yzeater · Aug 2, 2002

Crashes in the wood aren't that bad if you have bark busters...and if you're alone. At my last harescrambles I had MX guards. Just about broke my hands a dozen times, and people ran over me when I crashed

MrLuckey · Aug 2, 2002

IRISH..........them there aint woods, looks like a durn 4 lane freeway :p Them aint some o'those Thump cleared trails are they?

IrishEKU · Aug 2, 2002

Originally posted by TTRGuy
IRISH..........them there aint woods, looks like a durn 4 lane freeway :p Them aint some o'those Thump cleared trails are they?

:)

TTR, That's the only one I have right now that wasn't taken on the "Loop". As soon as I get some shots of the "tight" stuff I will post it. BTW it really does look like I 75 with all the construction going on :)

justql · Aug 2, 2002

Our club has over 500 acres. Two different loops. The longest being 20 + miles. The shorter loop is 6 or so. There are some more open places on the trail. A few miles of it is actually bulldozer blade wide.

We have a Supercross style track. Very technical jumps. Hard packed red clay. We also have a Freestyle jump. :eek: Kenny Barrtram is a member, what can I say.

We used to have a GP style track but it is pretty well gone now. Really just a wide rocky trail now.

Our club does not get the $25 membership fee, it goes to the city who pays the rent on the land and they also cover the insurance. We raise money for maintence of the park. Our enduro is our big fundraiser. We have set up a dozer fund that people donate to. When it reaches a certain amount we prep the track. Otherwise we do get some monet from the city a couple times a year to prep the track.

I don't mind the MX track. Our problem is the guys that run the dozer when they prep it are a little over eager. Even diehard mxers agree it is a pretty dangerous track.

mx547 · Aug 2, 2002

Originally posted by WoodsRider
Yet people join and want a motocross track, places to jump and roads to ride up and down going WFO.

sounds like my kind of riding.

what's the real problem? concern over injuries or the trail guys don't want the mx and atv guys? if it's the latter, just make it clear that it's a trail only club and it will remain that way. but since you have already allowed a jump area at one time, that may not be a fair option. you may just have to take a member vote and live with the results. don't get me wrong, i fully understand why you would want it to be trails only. i just think it might be too late for that.

BSWIFT · Aug 2, 2002

I MX, hurt back and dislocated elbow.
I ride woods, a few bruises to the body and the ego(justql and MX547 constantly remind me)
I enjoy MX, just started last October and really like it. I've riden the woods since I was 12 and don't get tired of it. ATV's will eventually kill our sport and our clubs. I own two ATV's and I use them as intended. I wear appropriate gear and respect the fact that it weighs 400 + pounds.
Woods, if your club is primarily woods riders, put your boot where it counts. Safety has got to be the primary concern or everyone looses.

tx246 · Aug 2, 2002

ttr guy post 11. look here. just a thought about mx vs. woods and injuries. i feel like if im racing, i am safer on an mx track than i would be racing in the woods. after all the emt and hospital is just seconds away. i cant imagine a broken leg in the middle of a 20 mile loop miles from nowhere. i agree just "trail riding" is inherently safer than cruising around an mx track. but the idea of "racing" in the woods is still scary to me. i have been riding offroad/mx for a long time. this is the first time ive ever been in plaster. not too bad of a record. i find that racing does push you to develop skill and as you develop skill the speed increases whether that be mx or woods. when you mess up at speed, the consequences are greater chance of a severe injury mx or woods. take any pro woods racer that crashes at race speed in the trees or desert and they take licks severe as any motocrosser. see scott summers, randy hawkins, shane watts ect. i think we all agree that having an injury sucks but riding anywhere puts you at risk. we heartland spodes have just been riding spodely lately. really, if you look at the how and why of each accident they were freakish. kinda weird how they happened within the same month though.

sorry woodsrider for getting off topic

i think the leadership who is probably mostly the "original" trailriders better do something about it now before the mx people get their people in place. how much history is there with this club and the land they use. is it the clubs land? if you havent already, you need a charter that spells out what your club is about. if the people who created the club and obtained the land to ride on dont define its uses, you might have monster trucks out there jumping buses. 30bucks is pretty cheap for a key to a gate and a place to ride.

there can be coexistince between mx and woods guys but there will always be differences of opinion.

any coexistince between 4wheelers and 2wheelers will always be uneasy and difficult. you might have to create "seperate but equal" facilities. you know where that is going and its never a happy place.

Tony Eeds · Aug 2, 2002

I have to agree that MX tracks are likely to be more dangerous, but for reasons that no one has expressed as yet.
You are much more likely to find a green novice at a local track trying to learn how to ride while being passed by everything from minis to quads in some cases.
I recently saw a guy short a double and land right on the crown. T'was not a pretty sight.
Riding in the woods is slow motion compared to MX, even though the tracks are designed to keep the speed down. 20 or 30 feet of air is still 20 or 30 feet of air.

MrLuckey · Aug 3, 2002

Originally posted by Tony Eeds
Riding in the woods is slow motion compared to MX

:) No way, there are so many things to be looking for in the tight trees, you can't see around corners, you probably don't know whats around the corner... NOPE

TX246 - the EMT and ambulance are after the fact and have nothing to do with whether you are injured or not. Yeah its nice to have them there but... Sounds like you are saying only fast guys get hurt bad but thats not what I've seen - esp looking at DRN members!

I guess I should have added that IF I HAD to break a leg, yeah I'd rather do it at the track than way out in the woods, but I also place a lot of faith in the clubs and their workers to get to me ASAP. Also, regarding MX547's post right after this one - I am really talking about 'racing' whether its a HS, Enduro or MX. Not play riding or leisurely strolls. Two full hours of hauling ass though the woods in a HS is not comparable to a leisurely trail ride just like racing MX is not comparable to pit racing!

mx547 · Aug 3, 2002

if your membership is growing by "leaps and bounds", then injuries will likely increase proportionately anyway. perhaps you should put a temporary injunction on new memberships until you decide as a club what direction you want to take.

as far as the injury risk of mx style riding versus trail riding, i believe mxers are inherently more prone to injury due to the different philosophy in the riding. for the most part, mxers ride to their limits with absolute speed being the ultimate goal. i think many trail riders are satisfied with just taking leisurely cruises with speed or time not being important thereby reducing the risk of injury. as for me, i figure i'm about equally at risk. i always ride as fast as i am comfortable with, in either situation. i think my experience at mx riding probably negates some of the risk there but my lack of experience in the woods probably slightly increases my risk there--and anyone that thinks they will never suffer an injury is just being naive.

all that being said, my advice for you is to be selfish, protect what you have and get rid of the mxers and atvs while/if you still can and let them fend for themselves.

This is Ridiculous!

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biglou

Too much of a good thing.

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