FBJ913 said:i do realize this is going to be a touchy subject but this is the only place i know to post this question.
has anyone riddin with or know a lot about the EVS Web brace? i am torn between the EVS and Asterisk. Any input is welcome... Thanks In Advance
Most knee injuries are the result of a crash or bad riding technique
The average rider or novice racer probably doesn't need braces. Most will be fine with some good impact protection like that provided by knee/shin guards.
FBJ913 said:i do realize this is going to be a touchy subject but this is the only place i know to post this question.
has anyone riddin with or know a lot about the EVS Web brace? i am torn between the EVS and Asterisk. Any input is welcome... Thanks In Advance
Most often, the force required to break a femur will result in a compound instead of simple fracture. The femur has no give other than bone elasticity, which declines as one gets older. The knee can absorb more twist than a single bone. By eliminating the knee's ability to twist with the use of braces, the force is then transferred directly to the femur and hip joint. When I started riding back in the 70s a broken femur was incredibly rare in this sport. Since the advent of knee braces it has become more common (along with hip dysplacia) and that has nothing to do with the increase in popularity of dirt bikes.Okie said:Here we go again. The force required to break the biggest, strongest bone in the human body; instead transferred to the knee will do a lot more than twist it. Even so, recovery from a bone is typically WAY better than a grenaded knee.
When you become an orthopaedic surgeon, let me know. Until then, I've spent enough time with them to listen when they speak. I have several that ride and advise against braces for all but the pro level riders or those who need to protect a prior injury. Few will recommend brace use to someone with no prior injury who is a casual rider/racer.Seriously Radrick, there are some, let's say "suspect" comments in your post.
Not all of them do. Like many things in our sport, what works for a pro racer is not always the best thing for the casual rider or racer. The speeds the pros ride at almost demand the ultimate in protection. Dabbing a toe at those speeds can do a lot more damage than what the same dab by a C class rider will do. Unfortunately, too many riders want to emulate what they see the pros using/wearing with little thought to whether they need it or can use it properly.I assume the pro's have their technique down, yet they all wear braces and the majority, Asterisk.
The only dirt bike-related knee injury was a torn meniscus I suffered in 2002. The rest were as a result of work injuries when I was an avionics installer (blew my ACL out working inside a plane), and injuries suffered in MTB crashes or in the course of my other job as a street bike rider/racer/test rider. I was a Cti customer as far back as 1985 when few outside of professional sports knew who they were. I wore my custom made brace for many years, but never while on the bike. The knee healed and it rarely gives me any problems any more.And frankly, someone who's blown their knees up several times probably isn't the one I'd look to for knee protection advise :laugh:
If anecdotal evidence had real value there'd be little need to do actual clinical studies or testing of many products. Just like helmets and other safety gear, no piece of equipment can protect in any and every situation. The manufacturers say as much on their labels. Wearing something as complex as a knee brace when your riding situation doesn't require it is wrong headed, IMO.Story; Average/above average MX'er (Thump), crashes on a 70' table. Wads it hard. Knee pain. Pulls the gear off, broken Asterisk Cell. Broke the Carbon Fiber frame. All he ended-up with was bruises (albeit bad ones), but no knee damage. Didn't break his leg, didn't blow-up his knee. THAT is a win-win deal.
You obviously made an informed decision for yourself based on your own criteria. The OP said nothing about the kind of riding he does, what kind of bike he has, where he rides, or his skill level. With such little info I made a reasoned response based on my own experience on the subject. He can choose to discard it or not. I would never characterize your experience as "suspect" even if I didn't agree with it. It's as valid to you as mine is to me. The challenge in a question such as this is to get as much info as possible, figure out which is relevant to your own situation, and make a decision accordingly. There's no point in us arguing over who has the more relevant info. It's all relative.As for me, there is NO WAY I'll ride without my braces.
RADRick said:When I started riding back in the 70s a broken femur was incredibly rare in this sport. Since the advent of knee braces it has become more common (along with hip dysplacia) and that has nothing to do with the increase in popularity of dirt bikes.
Please provide the clinical studies you've used to form your opinion. I assume your position is not anecdotal?If anecdotal evidence had real value there'd be little need to do actual clinical studies or testing of many products.
How is it you've come to the conclusion that the braces would not have helped avoid those injuries?The rest were as a result of work injuries when I was an avionics installer (blew my ACL out working inside a plane), and injuries suffered in MTB crashes or in the course of my other job as a street bike rider/racer/test rider.
Makes no difference. The same example given above (Thump) did in fact blow-up his knee pulling off the track (prior to wearing braces). As you are surely aware, serious damage can happen just stepping off a curb.The OP said nothing about the kind of riding he does, what kind of bike he has, where he rides, or his skill level.
In addition to my own anecdotal observations from almost 40 years of riding, my doctors at the Kerlan-Jobe Clinic in Los Angeles (one of the most prestigious sports medicine clinics in the country) have expressed to me of having seen an increase in such incidents. I don't know what kind of "SWAG" you're used to, but you haven't gotten it from me. Why do you hang out in a forum run by a magazine and industry you obviously have such disdain for? :coocoo:Rich Rohrich said:Do you have some sort of hard data to support that claim, or is this just the usual moto-journalist half-assed SWAG we've all grown so fond of over the years?
Don't put words in my mouth. I never cited any "clinical studies" as the basis for my opinions. I clearly said both our opinions were anecdotal in nature and that the reader had the onus to figure out what was relevant and useful based on their own criteria. Personally, I don't feel they add much to my style of riding and can't make a blanket recommendation of them to just anyone. You obviously feel differently, which is fine, but like I said, does nothing to diminish the validity of my perspective.Okie said:Please provide the clinical studies you've used to form your opinion. I assume your position is not anecdotal?
Well, I guess if one could wear braces during all activities, they might have helped. Unfortunately, they aren't practical to be worn to work or in all riding situations (they wouldn't fit under my Vanson race leathers). The street motorcycle mishaps that injured my knees were unexpected. One was a crash of a test bike at an event, the other a dab necessitated by an oil slick in a turn. Braces might have helped in both instances, I don't know, but without a commitment to wearing them all the time, I don't see how they would have been a factor for me.How is it you've come to the conclusion that the braces would not have helped avoid those injuries?
True, so would you recommend wearing braces at all times? I don't think so. The link you posted was to an event that occurred during a race. The protection given the rider in that instance isn't even the main point of a knee brace, which is to prevent hyper-extension and over-rotation of the knee joint. The impact damage protection provided by knee braces is a secondary benefit. Nevertheless, omeone riding at that level might want to give serious consideration to knee brace use, but without that info from the original poster, I just don't see the wisdom in recommending them to any and every rider without qualification. If you want to take me to task for that, so be it. :fft:Makes no difference. The same example given above (Thump) did in fact blow-up his knee pulling off the track (prior to wearing braces). As you are surely aware, serious damage can happen just stepping off a curb.
Don't put words in my mouth. I never cited any "clinical studies" as the basis for my opinions. I clearly said both our opinions were anecdotal in nature
If anecdotal evidence had real value there'd be little need to do actual clinical studies or testing of many products.
Wrong again. You really shouldn't jump to conclusions, as a freelance writer, that can't be a good thing. He's Joe Blow average practice riding.The link you posted was to an event that occurred during a race.
Excuse me, I should have said related to. Are you always this nit-picky?Okie said:Point number 1... this forum is not run by a magazine or industry. Hopefully all of your conclusions are jumped on so qucikly and without research.
Again, you are trying to relate what is prudent for a top level pro rider as being relevant for ANY rider. That just isn't so. I see guys who are and will always be intermediate level trail riders wearing knee braces. Long before any chance for a knee injury ever crosses their path, they are suffering from fatigue, movement restriction and elevated temperatures from their braces. Those affects are present all during their rides regardless of the risk of knee injury being high, low or non-existent. A recommendation is only as good as the criteria it's based on. I would rather see a rider spend $500 on a riding school than braces they probably don't need for the average trail ride or an occasional track day. That's money that will definitely improve their riding skills and reduce the chance of injury. Braces don't do anything to prevent a crash and can actually increase the chance as there is documented evidence that some protective equipment use fosters a false sense of security that leads to greater risk taking.I, as well as Rich also rode in the 70's. Me? 1973 was year one. Maybe, just maybe, the jumps are bigger, the tracks more technical, the speeds much greater... there are more broken necks, not to mention every bone in the body these days. I'm very aware of the differences. It's not knee braces. Just off the top of my head, I'm thinking there have been more broken necks than femurs in the pro ranks this year. Who in the pros suffered from a femur so far this year? At the speeds those guys go, if anyone will generate enough force to break that bone, it's those guys. Name one that doesn't wear braces. Oh yeah. Pastrana, his knees are famous.
Well, since he knows you and your riding situation, I'd listen to him. :rotfl:Oh yeah, my cousin is a Ortho.. he says wear 'em lol.
Picky? This forum, has NOTHING to do with the Magazine. I OWN IT. Primemedia has NOTHING to do with this site. DRN, LLC owns this site/forum, I own DRN, LLC.. We are not on Dirt Rider Mag's payroll. Let's see how else I can say it....Excuse me, I should have said related to. Are you always this nit-picky?
or you :rotfl: ?Well, since he knows you and your riding situation, I'd listen to him.
Seriously.. you have an opinion based on your experiences. I have mine. The only real difference? You've got crap for knees
I meant that anecdotal evidence has little value in bolstering absolute positions. Your experience is only relative to your situation, as is mine. It can be used to predict an outcome of a similar rider in a similar situation, but it can't be used to predict the outcome for all riders.No, actually this is what you said.
Quote:
If anecdotal evidence had real value there'd be little need to do actual clinical studies or testing of many products.
My bad. It read like he was in a race or seriously practicing for one. Again, if those are the kind of risks he's taking, then more protective gear, not less, is probably warranted. How is that relative to the OP?Wrong again. You really shouldn't jump to conclusions, as a freelance writer, that can't be a good thing. He's Joe Blow average practice riding.
Like I said (and you've ignored), my only dirt bike-related knee injury was a minor one. Would braces have prevented it? Maybe, maybe not. If I were still actively racing, I would probably wear braces, but even then I wouldn't feel compelled to wear them every time I ride, just every time I raced. Your mileage may vary. :cool:The rest of the last post? Not worth replying to. Seriously.. you have an opinion based on your experiences. I have mine. The only real difference? You've got crap for knees, I only had to nuke one to figure it out.
Basically, making crap of your own posts.If anecdotal evidence had real value there'd be little need to do actual clinical studies or testing of many products.
RADRick said:Why do you hang out in a forum run by a magazine
Wow, I guess I'm the first to make that mistake, huh? You had to have known the potential for confusion with the print magazine when you registered the domain name. Maybe you shouldn't be so sensitive about it. :nener:Okie said:Picky? This forum, has NOTHING to do with the Magazine. I OWN IT. Primemedia has NOTHING to do with this site. DRN, LLC owns this site/forum, I own DRN, LLC.. We are not on Dirt Rider Mag's payroll. Let's see how else I can say it....
This site is 100% NOT Dirt Rider Magazine.
You assume that everyone that rides does those things. I ride with people who never do most of those things and they're every bit the dirt biker that I am. I don't know why you and Rich have a hard-on for motojournalists, but that's your prerogative. It's your site so I'll just go. Buh-bye. :blah:Okie said:Simple. Ride without knee support and you are begging to end-up a gimp. In the woods, just putting around, put a foot down, boom. Get a foot caught in a rut on the track, boom. Flat land a jump, HE (boom). Wanna risk it, go for it.
Are we done now?
RADRick said:You assume that everyone that rides does those things. I ride with people who never do most of those things and they're every bit the dirt biker that I am. I don't know why you and Rich have a hard-on for motojournalists, but that's your prerogative. It's your site so I'll just go. Buh-bye. :blah:
RADRick said:I don't know why you and Rich have a hard-on for motojournalists, but that's your prerogative.
RADRick said:It's your site so I'll just go. Buh-bye.
Show me where I presented anything as other than my opinion or personal experience.Rich Rohrich said:Poorly researched opinions presented as FACT might have something to do with it. ;)
Running for cover? I've spent the past hour rebutting your and Okie's thinly-veiled attempts to discredit me for doing nothing more than expressing an opinion on a public message board. Judging from your tag line, you have no use for people who do what I do for a living. Good for you. :nener:Typical moto-journalist, call BS on him and he goes running for cover. Where's the WHAAAAAMBULANCE when you need it?
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