Uh Oh piston damaged.

KAY DEE EXER

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Mar 3, 2003
629
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Im doing my top end and found something interesting. What does it mean when there is about 40 or so small indentations on the top of the old piston. Its from hitting the spark plug by the looks of it. It doesnt look like my rebuild is going to go smoothly after all. Any advise or reasons for it happening would be hugely appreciated. On a side note cleaning the KIPS is an easy job once you get it all out. I found a product that bought all the parts up looking brand new, I promise you like brand new parts. Subaru Upper engine cleaner. Its a combustion chamber and induction system cleaner. Top stuff !!!! :worship: Not cheap tho... And smells bad. Its got aromatic petroleum distilates and butyl cellosolve in it. Any way so why is there dents in my old piston ?? Im just hoping someone ran the wrong plug at some stage and its nothing to serious.
 

lankytim

Member
Feb 26, 2004
62
0
Ahh, the joys of 2nd-owner motos. I hear you... Why is Old Mate previous owner always a total dunce when it comes to maintenance, putting oil & water in the right spots and replacing sprockets? Not to mention keeping an air filter clean and oiled.

Sorry, can't offer any help about your piston dents but I like your hunch about the non-spec spark plug, and thanks for the tip using the Soob cleaner for the KIPS. Last rebuild I did started (too many) months ago while I was living in a tiny, brand new rental apartment and scrubbing the KIPS without ruining the white laundry walls was quite an effort. Anything to make that little job quicker, cleaner and simpler is great!

Is the seat where the plug screws in badly worn? Or did someone run a plug without the washer on it? I'm not sure how much tolerance there is inside the head when it's at TDC - but maybe they could cause a plug to go too deep? It'd be worrying if there was something ELSE hard enough to do that in your cylinder! Good luck with the rebuild.
 

lankytim

Member
Feb 26, 2004
62
0
You might want to check if your main bearings still have the balls in them... they might have evacuated into the cylinder and bounced dents in. Man, that would make a wicked pea-shooter out the pipe...

Jokes. Useless jokes.
 

KAY DEE EXER

~SPONSOR~
Mar 3, 2003
629
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LOL Im gonna post pics of this and the swingarm I havent forgotten Jasonwho but someone borrowed my digi cam. Its all on the plug side of the piston (if that makes sense). Its 100% caused by the plug strap...but why????
 

canyncarvr

~SPONSOR~
Oct 14, 1999
4,005
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Depends on the 'dents.'

Such impressions can be left over from the bits of metal (melted for a number of possible reasons) that are not attached to the piston crown anymore.

Have a big carbon buildup on the bottom of the crown? That's a sign of excessive heat on the top.

Excessive heat can come from:
Spark Timing (too advanced)
Air/Fuel mixture too lean
Failed/failing cooling system
Wrong heat range plug (you will find argument on that part. NGK says a one step heat range change of plug changes the combustion chamber temp +/-50º I don't know I buy 100% of that).

Dents can come from FOD (foreign object damage). Something ingested that shouldn't-a been.

Detonation can destroy an engine. That can have bits and pieces flailing around in the combustion chamber after they fall off of whatever they fell off of. I could show you a piston with a whole bunch of ring land missing. The top of the piston (what was still there) looked like it had been beaten with a small hammer.

If your 'dents' are a depression right under the spark plug, it's likely molten aluminum missing from the crown.

Parts of spark plug can break off. Are you using a 'P' type (projected tip) plug? Don't do that!!

I could show you a piston with a cool intake (unfortunately, also an exhaust..) vent. That came from a spark plug disintegration. It was a fine wire that had been in the bike too long.

What is your big-end rod radial play? That would be bad if it was that sloppy.

Before you put it back together I'd suggest finding out what is wrong in the first place.

Correct plug?
Too much 'shave' off the head (cc it)?
Cylinder spec correct (not shaved there, too?)
Rod measurments
A/F too lean (crank seal leakage? Intake boot crack?)?

etc etc

Basically everything..

re:
'100% caused by the plug strap'

I don't know what that means. IF you mean the ground strap is what's banging on the piston then you have some serious clearance problems.

Yeah...that was brilliant, 'eh? :clue:
 
Last edited:

hog

Member
Nov 13, 2001
28
0
I second checking the big end of the rod. I HAD a 94 cr125. I opened it up and found the same thing. I put a piston in it and put it back together. Several days later the large end bearing went out and the rest is history.
 

KAY DEE EXER

~SPONSOR~
Mar 3, 2003
629
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Ill post more in detail later but there is a bit of play in the conrod. Sideways movement would be about 1mm. If you face the piston with the arrow facing away from you the marks are all on the left hand side. All roughly the same shape some are just deeper than others. I will post pics very soon (still waiting for my digi cam to be returned). Will I have to split the cases to change the bottom conrod bearing??? I cant see any other way of changing it... I wouldnt go as far as saying theres alot of carbon build up under the crown but it is discoloured black with brown edges.
 

lankytim

Member
Feb 26, 2004
62
0
You betchya you gotta split the cases to change the big end. "While you're down there..." why not rebuild everything? It will make you feel good.

lankytim's tip: If you go ahead with replacing the main bearings (pretty cheap, about AUD$45 for two) I can give you the advice to most definitely buy genuine Kawasaki parts there... I just did a rebuild on my Katie and there was a problem when I put my cases back together - crank very tight to turn. (Much swearing and annoyedness.) Took it to the Kawa shop and they split it and couldn't find a problem, crank was pressed back together in spec, etc. I asked them to put new, new main bearings in it. They couldn't get genuine Kawa parts in in time for the main bearings so asked me if I'd accept aftermarket parts - sure, the numbers match up and I had originally put same parts in. Wrong! They discovered that although the bearings are otherwise identical the Kawasaki parts have a bevelled inner race that fits snug against the inner end of the crankshaft against the weighty-bit, ie. makes the whole assembly slightly thinner and subsequently less tight when the cases are back together.

The most insulting part is that I paid about $4 extra for the non-genuine parts in the beginning...

Probably nothing new to the more experienced rebuilders out there, but just thought it's an important tip if you go ahead with the rebuild.

New rod and big end kit, plus labour, was around AUD$180 at the Kawasaki shop. Not one to attempt at home unless you have a pretty schmick workshop.
 

KAY DEE EXER

~SPONSOR~
Mar 3, 2003
629
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Thats not too bad Tim $$ wise I thought it would be alot worse. One thing I have just thought of........
When I took out the old piston it had a good amount of carbon on the top BUT the dents were NOT evident until I soaked the piston for 2 days to get the carbon off. It was only then that I noticed the dents. This would lead me to beleive that it hasnt happened recently... I hoping maybe the previous owner/s used a wrong plug somewhere in its life. Any thoughts on this one ???? Thanks all for your input. :thumb:
 

23jayhawk

Sponsoring Member
Apr 30, 2002
675
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Can't offer much help on the diagnosis, but I suggest that the plug is not what caused the dents. If someone used an incorrect (longer) plug, you might have a 'dent', but not plural. The piston is going to come up to the same spot each time, hence one impact point.

Also, after the first contact the ground strap would likely crush against the center electrode, closing the gap.
 

KAY DEE EXER

~SPONSOR~
Mar 3, 2003
629
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You have a very good point 23jayhawk. Thank you. I have managed to get a few photos of it. Ill post a small one here and the rest elsewhere to save space. The elsewhere pics are better so you can save them and zoom in for a better look. There are no marks in the head, cylinder, ports etc. Everything there is fine.... Im starting to think some previous (dumb) owner has been bashing on the top of the piston with a small sharp object. :bang: It was covered in a fair amount of baked on carbon so like I said before it strikes me as not being a very recent thing (hopeful thinking). You can sort of see the front forks Jasonwho in some of the pics but I will post some better ones soon of the swingarm too. I have my digi back now. :aj: Thanks for any and all your input guys I'm getting scared $$$ wise where this is going to end.


http://community.webshots.com/scripts/editPhotos.fcgi?action=viewall&albumID=72855426&ran=21750
 

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canyncarvr

~SPONSOR~
Oct 14, 1999
4,005
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Those aren't from no sparkplug....even a splitfire! ;)

re: covered in carbon?

Not recent then.

I'm still on the FOD track......The piston is considerably softer than the head.
 

KAY DEE EXER

~SPONSOR~
Mar 3, 2003
629
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Cheers CC I checked big end bearing service limits and its fine. Im gonna chance it and put it back together. It was strong before the rebuild, I did it for piece of mind mostly. Fingers crossed... Musta been some funky hard FO... Thanks again guys for all your replies. Mucho appreciated !!
 
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