What the heck happened to TNT? And Brushy Mtn.

[TheSlowGuy]

I went to TNT for the first time in six or seven months today and was appalled at the condition of the trails. They've really let the place go to pot. The ruts were two-three feet deep, the trails often forked then looped back on themselves sending you the wrong way on a one-way trail, there was a huge washout with a ten+ foot vertical drop that wasn't marked, and the trails looked like the hadn't been groomed in MONTHS.

Even considering the heavy rains we've been having, there's no good reason for the trails to be in as poor condition as they were. Everyone we talked to today agreed that they were doing a horrible job maintaining the trails.

I don't mind paying money to ride good trails, but why pay money to ride crappy trails? I can ride crappy trails for free. ;)

So anyway we need to find a new spot to go trail riding. Has anyone been to Brushy Mountain? How does it compare to TNT? I don't mind ponying up the $450 for an annual membership if it means safe, fun trails that are well maintained.

 

[truespode]

The issue with the trails at TNT are two fold...

1) The person who originally put in the trail system designed them a certain way that requires a lot of maintenance since he did not put in enough drainage.

2) He is no longer a part of TNT and now the owner is having to do all the work herself.

Keep in mind she has a full time job on top of what she does at TNT.

I rode the trails today and considering the amount of traffic on there and the lack of people willing to help maintain anything they have held up pretty well. Consider the other trail systems in SC have been closed all winter and have had them worked on during that closure you will find that there are still a lot of opportunities in SC.

TNT (www.tntmotorsportsinc.com) has a friends of TNT program where if you are willing to work on the system you can ride for free. To date only a few people have signed up and even less of them have even showed.

As for the trails forking and looping back that is a result of ATV and dirtbike riders who refused to stay on the trail and they created off path problems. Most of the trail riders who have been there never said anything until recently and by that time the alternate paths and the ruts were so deep that it will take a lot of work to fix. Work she is trying to get done but it will take time.

Ivan

 

[TheSlowGuy]

Originally posted by Truespode
1) The person who originally put in the trail system designed them a certain way that requires a lot of maintenance since he did not put in enough drainage.

OK, but they were maintained very well last year. The trails themselves have not changed, the effort dedicated to maintaining them has. Since the admission price has not dropped but the maintenance has, that means we are expected to accept a substandard product for the same money.

Originally posted by Truespode
2) He is no longer a part of TNT and now the owner is having to do all the work herself.

If one woman is going to maintain the whole park by herself, then the park is doomed.

Originally posted by Truespode
TNT (www.tntmotorsportsinc.com) has a friends of TNT program where if you are willing to work on the system you can ride for free. To date only a few people have signed up and even less of them have even showed.

That's a great program, but I'd rather support TNT by paying my $20 at the gate. Hell, I'd pay more if it meant good trails.

Originally posted by Truespode
I rode the trails today and considering the amount of traffic on there and the lack of people willing to help maintain anything they have held up pretty well.

Everyone that pays a fee at the gate is willing to help maintain the trails. Some people have time to give, others have money. Both can be used for maintenance. The problem is when I pay, but there is no maintenance. If the owner has made a business decision not to hire someone to replace the person who used to maintain the trails, then that is her choice but the effect of her decision is that she will lose customers (two today).

Originally posted by Truespode
As for the trails forking and looping back that is a result of ATV and dirtbike riders who refused to stay on the trail and they created off path problems. Most of the trail riders who have been there never said anything until recently and by that time the alternate paths and the ruts were so deep that it will take a lot of work to fix. Work she is trying to get done but it will take time.

The bad forks should have already been roped off. As well-traveled as they looked, it's apparent they've been there for months.

JMHO.

 

[truespode]

they were maintained very well last year.

No. They were maintained the same way last year as they were this year. It just took this long since the trails were re-done (2 years ago) for them to start to show their wear. Also, last year there was A LOT less rain.

Very little maintenance, if any, was done last year. I know... I have been riding there regularly for 5 years and know those trails very well.

If one woman is going to maintain the whole park by herself, then the park is doomed.

Would you say that if a man was in charge? She is doing a good job but right now she has a lot of things to get sorted out. It takes labor and money to work on the trails and the RTP grants were suspended last year and those RTP grants was what allowed the trail system to be re-done two years ago.

She has put in for the grants this year now that the grant program has been re-initiated. Once she gets the approval for the funds she plans to put in culverts and re-do the trails. It is very important to her.

The help that she has hired did not work on the trails like they should have been worked on. A lot more focus was put in to the track. She trusted her employee's to do the work... she just recently noticed how bad they were and now she is trying to get it done.

Just today some dirt was put in to one area to try and fill in the ruts and help with drainage. A little bit of work is being done here and there. I noticed several locations that had been worked on since 3 weeks ago. However, the help is not as much as it used to be and it will take time to rehab the trails.

That's a great program, but I'd rather support TNT by paying my $20 at the gate. Hell, I'd pay more if it meant good trails.

The reason we lose so many riding areas is b/c too many people only want to pay. Nobody is willing to put in the work.

You have the right to just want to pay to play. You also have the right to complain. I am just explaining the situation.

Everyone that pays a fee at the gate is willing to help maintain the trails.

Funny I only know of two of us with weedeaters in our hands today helping out.

Some people have time to give, others have money. Both can be used for maintenance.

True. But there is not enough of either. The costs associated with keeping trails in good shape is a lot... whether it be financially or with man hours. Until she gets the RTP funding the capital won't be there and until she hires replacements the labor won't be there.

The problem is when I pay, but there is no maintenance.

That is b/c there are so few willing to pay extra for the maintenance and even less willing to help with labor. She is looking for help and she has applied for funding.

If the owner has made a business decision not to hire someone to replace the person who used to maintain the trails, then that is her choice but the effect of her decision is that she will lose customers (two today).

She did hire replacements. At one time she had two employee's working there. One for the track and one for the trails. They were good guys but a lot of the work was not done that should have been done on the trails.

The bad forks should have already been roped off. As well-traveled as they looked, it's apparent they've been there for months.

Yes. They have been there awhile and the other replacement that was recently brought in was supposed to work on that. That person left a couple weeks ago.

JMHO.

Your opinion is valid. The trails need work. However, the help is not there and the hired help has not worked out like it should for whatever reason.

You can complain all you want but it will take time while she hires the help needed and gets the RTP funding. It will happen. When it does you'll come back and that is great. Until then have fun riding elsewhere.

BTW, three years ago before the trails were re-done they were worse than they are now, IMO. TNT got funding approved and had help working on the trails and they put in a system that lasted over a year with no maintenance... now they are on that second year and the trail system needs work. With the funding they will be able to re-do the trails again and this time put in much of the drainage that was not put in last time. The trails will also be more of a focal point in the maintenance plan.

Ivan

 

[TheSlowGuy]

OK let me rephrase then - the trails were in much better shape last year than they are this year. The fact that little or no maintenance has been done in over a year is amazing. What am I paying for when I pay my $20 at the gate, if not for trail maintenance?

Jeez Ivan, yes I would say that if a man was in charge. There's no way one person can maintain that park. It's a losing battle.

To be honest - the motocross tracks looked great, and it's apparent to me that any and all maintenance effort lately has gone into them. If TNT wants to become primarily a motocross park that's fine, I can go trail riding other places.

Quote:
Funny I only know of two of us with weedeaters in our hands today helping out.

Did you pay to get in, or did you get in for free?

Quote: You can complain all you want but it will take time while she hires the help needed and gets the RTP funding. It will happen. When it does you'll come back and that is great. Until then have fun riding elsewhere.

Actually we may not. If Brushy Mountain is everything it claims to be then we've found a new home.

 

[truespode]

There's no way one person can maintain that park. It's a losing battle.

That is why she hires people. However, the past few weeks she has been running the dozer and doing the vast majority of maintenance. A lot of previous issues are being fixed. One thing is for sure, she is a hard worker.

To be honest - the motocross tracks looked great, and it's apparent to me that any and all maintenance effort lately has gone into them.

The equipment she has can get on the track but not on the trails. The past two weeks she is the one that has done the work with the dozer on the track.

If TNT wants to become primarily a motocross park that's fine, I can go trail riding other places.

TNT does not want to be just a MX park. That is why she has put in for the RTP grant funding to get the funding needed to repair the trails. She wants to have the trails built by the standards of NOHVCC (www.nohvcc.org) and would love to get some help from the guy who has held some trail workshops in SC in the past.

Did you pay to get in, or did you get in for free?

Yesterday I paid. I usually get in for free b/c of the help I do. However, the new girl at the gate doesn't know me and I am glad to help where I can.

[qoute]Actually we may not. If Brushy Mountain is everything it claims to be then we've found a new home.[/quote]

I don't know about you but I get bored riding just one place. TNT will have great trails again providing the funding comes through.

The bottom line is that TNT realizes the issue with the trails and will be working on them and doing what they can. TNT does not have the resources it used to have (RTP funding, SWECO trail dozer and labor) so some things have to be re-developed so to speak. Judging from what I've seen I personally think things will go really well.

Lastly, I know of several people who have complained about the track a while back and now a lot of people are calling it great (John Dowd even rode there after the Daytona SX and liked the track a lot). The point I'm making is that when an issue is realized TNT does what it takes to correct it. Unfortunately, the trails will take longer b/c of how many miles there is and that most of the work has to be done by hand now.

Even with a SWECO a lot of the work has to be done by hand b/c so much dirt has to be brought in. Otherwise the SWECO would just cut out a 50" wide 12" rut. The SWeCO is great at moving dirt around but since so much has dirt has been washed away TNT now has to go through the work of putting in more dirt. However, to do things right they also need to put in the drainage (culverts and such) and they need the RTP funding for that.

Ivan

 

[flynbryan]

Ivan I believe we have the personel willing to help, No one has said anything of late in order for us to get together and do something about it though. I think the response of "Funny we were the only ones w/weedeaters in our hands...." was a little uncalled for. It kind of incinuates that no one else want to do anything, and only you and another person are willing to help out......Come on Ivan, you know I'm a trail rider, and I am more than willing to help if someone just informs me of when. I do understand that Barbara is working to get something done, but I unfortunatly had to say the same thing, that when the trails were fixed I'd be back to ride. Dave and myself volunteered the first time we had ever come down there, and worked w/Mike his son, and Honda Pilot for a good 2-3 hr. that day before we even went riding. Dave and I both currently have memberships to TNT, but because of trail conditions have not been in more than 3 months. I just think that responses like The Slow Guy's should be taken seriously. I have talked to numerous people at Manchester, and other riding places in this area as well that said that they would not return to TNT because of the trail conditions. I have to be honest they really have gotten shot. :( Its a great place, and I really like Barbara. It just really needs some help bad before they lose their trail riding population all together. And as far as help is concerned Ivan get Barbara to let us know a date, and I'll do all that I can to be there. My time is pretty busy for the next couple of weeks, but if I know something in advance maybe we can help out.

 

[truespode]

Too many people are waiting on someone else to say "lets go work."

Why?

Nobody asked me to work this past weekend. I just started doing some stuff. A lot of people will help when asked but more will bitch and sit back and do nothing. I'm not saying that is what you are doing... however, if you knew how many people have offered help and then do not show you would understand.

Also, why do I have to get Barbara to give you a date? Can't you? Can't anyone who says they want to help do the same?

It is very easy to say "nobody asked me." That is a cop out.

I think Slowguy's feelings should be taken seriously as well. I never said that it shouldn't. I said he has the right to complain. But... I wanted to explain the situation.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people who do not have to do it can always do it better.

It takes a lot of work to run TNT and if you knew half of what has gone on then you would understand the situation she is in. The trails need work... if you don't like them the way they are don't ride them. Nobody will fault you. However, things are being done to try and get what is necessary for them to be back in shape.

I know TNT appreciates the help you have given. There are less of you than you know.

I have no problem with the complaining or the people not wanting to go back until the trails are better. I'm only trying to explain that it is NOT a lack of wanting to fix them and I believe that they will be fixed.

Ivan

 

[truespode]

For the record... the amount of help I give to TNT is not a lot. The help I do give is not usually track or trail related. I am not trying to give off this vibe that "I help and you don't." There are A LOT who help more in a day than I do in a year. Still with those that do help it is small in comparison to the amount of work that needs to be done.

I'm not trying to belittle anyone who is complaining either... I just see a lot of people who complain without knowing the facts as if the owner wants to have trails the way they are.

I realize those that will help but too many will not. As a part of SCORE (www.scohv.org) I have seen how few will help. There is help that is needed that does not require attending a work day but very few are willing to do much. Those that have helped are appreciated.

The issue is that this sport is our recreation and we work enough during the week. I completely understand it b/c there are times I pass on a workday or something b/c I am not up to it.

The issue I am trying to get across here is that there are a lot of reasons TNT's trails are the way they are. However, they won't remain that way if TNT can get the funding and help they need.

Complain, don't ride there, do what you want... just know that it is not planned to leave the trails the way they are. Give it some time and be patient.

Ivan

 

[flynbryan]

I know its just a touchy subject Ivan. And reasons(not always excuses) are a mile long. As you said we do this as a hobby, this is what we do when we're not at work. The majority of us don't want to "work" on our days off. I understand the situation. And I know Barbara is working on it. I just did, like you said, think that the comment sounded a little belittleing. As far as me asking Barbara, fair enough. I'll do so this week. No insults meant, no hard feelings. Just found this to be a common, as well as personal concern and thought I would comment. Talk to you soon.

 

[truespode]

Glad you understand where I'm coming from.

Thanks Bryan.

Ivan

 

[TheSlowGuy]

Ivan, your attitude has strenthened, not reduced, my resolve not to go back to TNT. You admit that your role there is very minor, and yet you also admit that you usually get in for free.

I pay EVERY time I go in, and up until yesterday I've done it happily. But when I pay ~$400 over the course of a year to ride the trails, and then you belittle me for not offering to work on top of that, well, that really just pisses me off. I'll go someplace that spends my money on trail maintenance. Where has my money been spent the past 12 months at TNT?

 

[truespode]

Originally posted by TheSlowGuy
you belittle me for not offering to work on top of that, well, that really just pisses me off.

I wasn't belittling you. You are taking the weedwhacking comment too personally. You made a comment that everyone who goes in the gate is willing to help and I was pointing out that that is not the case.

The point is a lot of people do not realize how much work that goes into it.

You have the right to complain... I have said that over and over. I have just tried to explain the situation. I really do not understand why you are getting so upset.

I'm sorry you are taking this personally but I'm not. I'm just explaining that TNT knows there is a problem and they are working to correct it.

I guess my mistake is trying to go into detail to explain it. I mistakenly figured that if you had the facts as to what is going on and that TNT is trying to improve things you may have a better understanding of the situation.

You did ask what was up with TNT in your title and I was trying to answer that.

Ivan

 

[truespode]

Originally posted by Truespode You have the right to just want to pay to play. You also have the right to complain.

Originally posted by Truespode
Your opinion is valid.

Originally posted by Truespode
I think Slowguy's feelings should be taken seriously as well. I never said that it shouldn't. I said he has the right to complain.

Originally posted by Truespode
I have no problem with the complaining or the people not wanting to go back until the trails are better.

Originally posted by Truespode
I'm not trying to belittle anyone who is complaining either

Just for the record... the complaining is not a problem and neither is anyone's negative opinion.

I was only explaining the situation.

If you prefer to just complain and not understand why things are the way they are go ahead. I apologize for even getting involved.

Ivan

 

[truespode]

One last thing...

Have you ever talked to Barbara about your issues with the trails? Speak to her at all?

Or did you just come to a public internet site and complain first?

Ivan

 

[James]

Originally posted by TheSlowGuy
Where has my money been spent the past 12 months at TNT?

Bulldozer fuel, equipment repairs, insurance, track/trail maintenance, drainage pipe, and some small salaries. Do you have any idea what it costs to run such an operation?? How far do you think $400 goes?? Well, wait a minute, you haven't been there in seven months....so your money was gone a long time ago.

Considering that is has basically poured since December causing business to be abysmal, on top of the staff/other problems that have been going on, we are probably lucky that it is still on the list of possible riding places.

I also "contribute" by paying at the gate but I can't hardly complain about $10 to have access to that much riding area. I pay 5 times that to play golf most times. Yeah, the trails aren't like cart paths but when they are DRY, they are rideable and FAR from unsafe. The place has always stayed wet after rain and there isn't much that can be done about that, except rebuilding the trails as Ivan has already explained.

How come you don't mention Brown or Uwharrie....are those unacceptable also? By all means join Brushy Mountain, I am glad there is another place to ride for now and I think you should go support it. I'll even pay $10 to come ride at your meticulously groomed off road park when you have successfully opened one. Maybe then you'll be able to appreciate what it takes to keep a place like that open.

Ivan honestly answered your "what happened to TNT" question and I don't think it's his attitude as much as he just didn't tell you what you wanted to hear. I also don't see what you are accomplishing by ditching TNT to spite Ivan but whatever makes you happy.

 

[TheSlowGuy]

Originally posted by James
Bulldozer fuel, equipment repairs, insurance, track/trail maintenance...

Actually, according to Ivan, there hasn't been any money spent on trail maintenance in over a year. Which also means that all the dozer fuel, repairs, and insurance has gone into maintaining the MX tracks.

Originally posted by James
I also "contribute" by paying at the gate but I can't hardly complain about $10 to have access to that much riding area. I pay 5 times that to play golf most times. Yeah, the trails aren't like cart paths but when they are DRY, they are rideable and FAR from unsafe. The place has always stayed wet after rain and there isn't much that can be done about that, except rebuilding the trails as Ivan has already explained.

And I pay $150/game to see the Panthers. So what? Golf != Trail Riding. Besides, I've already said I'd pay more than $20 to get in if it meant good trails, but you conveniently overlooked that.

Originally posted by James
Ivan honestly answered your "what happened to TNT" question and I don't think it's his attitude as much as he just didn't tell you what you wanted to hear. I also don't see what you are accomplishing by ditching TNT to spite Ivan but whatever makes you happy.

What did I want to hear, then? I'll tell you what I didn't want to hear, which is that NONE of the money I've given the park over the past year has gone towards trail maintenance. I have a problem with that, and will chose to spend my money elsewhere because of it.

Listen, you guys can flame me all you want but it doesn't change the facts that:
* I've paid a significant amount of money to ride the trails at TNT.
* None of that money has gone towards maintaining those trails.
* I have just as much a right to state the facts (the trails are in poor condition) as you have to respond emotionally (flames).

 

[truespode]

Originally posted by TheSlowGuy
Actually, according to Ivan, there hasn't been any money spent on trail maintenance in over a year.

No. I said they were not maintained. The money was spent on labor that didn't pan out and equipment that did not get used.

Originally posted by TheSlowGuy
* None of that money has gone towards maintaining those trails.

You are right - in part... the money has not gone into maintenance of the trails as it should. However, that was a result of help not doing what they were paid to do... the money went towards it but it did not work out. Hence the change in personnel and her trying to get new help.

Also, the money goes for payments on the property, tractor, 4-wheeler and other equipment that is intended for work on the trail.

The hardest thing to maintain is a trail system. That is why so few OHV parks have them anymore. Look at www.scohv.org and look at the amount of trail systems and then look at the amount of mx tracks. The only privately owned place with a trail system that I know of that is still open is TNT. The rest of the trail systems are public and SCORE maintains them with the help of a few core members and RTP funding.

You seem to be taking this like all she wants to do is get your money and not do anything with the trails when that is not the case. I know how hard it is to maintain trails b/c of my affiliation with SCORE and I know how hard she works b/c of my relationship with her. I can assure you that she is doing everything she can and she will get things where they need to be.

Nobody is more upset about the condition of the trails then her. However, you can only get done what you can get done. The rain has made things tough b/c it has dropped business and hurt conditions. She has maintained the track as best she could b/c that is what she is able to do.

I could go into detail about working on trails but it would make this longer than it should and I do not think you are interested in hearing about it anyway. Let's just say that most people can get a dozer and a dump truck on an mx track but it takes as much dirt (as well as more culvert and more rocks) to rehab a few miles of trail than it does to put dirt on an mx track but you have to haul the stuff to the trail with 4-wheeler's and carts, not dump trucks and dozers.

You asked what happened. I told you. Nobody disagrees about the condition of the trails but they won't be fixed overnight and they won't be fixed without the RTP funding (or an amazing turn around in business that has been down b/c of the rain) or help - whether it be hired or volunteered.

I for one will continue to go and be happy to help when I can. I have seen the growth of TNT over 5 years. The changes I have seen are significant and I'm not going to turn away from the place now that the trails need a little work when the rest of the place is always improving and I know the owner wants nothing more than to make everything great.

Others have come to DRN and complained about the trails too... they did not title their subject with a question so I stayed out of it. I tried to answer your questions and think I gave you more info than was necessary.

Have fun elsewhere. I hope you safe and fun riding conditions.

Ivan

 

[High Lord Gomer]

By a show of hands, how many can tell that Ivan's bike is in pieces and he hasn't been riding enough? :o

TSG is right, over the last year and a half the money that was spent on employees and equipment was done trusting that the employees were properly maintaining the track *and* trails.  They weren't...mostly because they weren't interested in the trails, but also because maintaining the trails is a lot more work than dozing the track.

Part of the reason Ivan gets so worked up about this is because he knows that TNT has never been self supporting.  Barbara works another job so she can put money INTO TNT...she's never gotten a dime out of it.  Many people (not meaning you) talk about all of the money coming in the gate, but the 70 or 80 riders that came this past week probably weren't enough to pay the employees she does have, much less the $6000 rebuild of the engine that was just done for the loader.

The trails would be much easier to work on if they were widened enough to drive a tractor through, but Barbara doesn't want to do that.  If enough people reallu want that, I'm sure she'd listen, though.  (Don't tell anyone, but I would prefer 10 foot wide trails!)

BTW, you shouldn't be paying $20 per day to ride.  It is $10 per year for the membership and $10 per day to ride.

Keep in touch and we'll let you know when the trails get back in shape.

 

[James]

Originally posted by TheSlowGuy
Actually, according to Ivan, there hasn't been any money spent on trail maintenance in over a year. Which also means that all the dozer fuel, repairs, and insurance has gone into maintaining the MX tracks.

Insurance and property taxes (lease?), among other things, are required just to keep the place open (provides access to the trails in case you conveniently overlooked that). There was a guy who worked there within the past year whose job was supposed to be maintaining the trails...doesn't mean he did a good job, but he got paid. I am quite sure there has been at least $400 dollars spent on removing fallen trees and doing other stuff on the trails beyond insurance and property taxes...so all of "your money" went towards the trails...congratulations. Unlike the state parks, TNT doesn't get large chunks of our tax money or free land and can't afford to close for months on end during the winter/rain The huge ruts come from people who use the park when it is muddy because there is nowhere else to go.

Originally posted by TheSlowGuy
And I pay $150/game to see the Panthers. So what? Golf != Trail Riding. Besides, I've already said I'd pay more than $20 to get in if it meant good trails, but you conveniently overlooked that.

The golf comment was in response to your whining about "having to accept a substandard product for the same money." I am still laughing about that one. It wasn't meant to turn into a bidding war of pomp over who spends the most for entertainment.

Originally posted by TheSlowGuy
What did I want to hear, then? I'll tell you what I didn't want to hear, which is that NONE of the money I've given the park over the past year has gone towards trail maintenance. I have a problem with that, and will chose to spend my money elsewhere because of it.

I guess you wanted to hear all of us bashing TNT too. But since we go more often than every seven months, we aren't ignorant about what has "been going on." Sounds like you basically chose to spend your money elsewhere seven months ago (before the place "went to pot") and that is most of what baffles me about this gripe you have concerning where your money went.

You said "there is no good reason" and we gave you some of the reasons...accept them or not. I am not even saying that your assessment of the trails is wrong. This may have all gone differently if you simply inquired about Brushy Mountain, but instead you wanted to make a big public issue out of it while being obviously absent and uninformed of the issues, I have a problem with that.

 

[TheSlowGuy]

Originally posted by James
I guess you wanted to hear all of us bashing TNT too. But since we go more often than every seven months, we aren't ignorant about what has "been going on." Sounds like you basically chose to spend your money elsewhere seven months ago (before the place "went to pot") and that is most of what baffles me about this gripe you have concerning where your money went.

Actually, I broke three ribs in a motorcycle accident, but thanks for your concern.

 

[TheSlowGuy]

Originally posted by High Lord Gomer
BTW, you shouldn't be paying $20 per day to ride.  It is $10 per year for the membership and $10 per day to ride.

My wife usually comes with me, and she'll usually ride the trails once or twice during the day, so we pay the full $20 to get in.

 

[James]

All disagreements aside, sorry to hear about the accident.

 

[flynbryan]

I think we've all kind of made our points on this one.......

 

[CamDayKX125(4)]

why does everyone talk about TNTs trails?i mean, come on guys, you got to admit the tracks are pretty cool. ive heard alot about trail riding with big bikes like cr500s and yz,cr 250s, what gear are you guys riding in? and, on to the topic here, whenever i talk to people who trail ride at TNT, they always say that the quads get stuck in the mud, COMPLETELY STOP, and give it full gas which makes ruts up to our knees. why cant they just go through the mud, i mean, after all, they are 4- wheelers.