Whats up with my compression?

dirtsurfer31

Member
Aug 6, 2003
20
0
Hey, guys. Love the site! anyways i'll cut to the question.

I have a 2000 Honda CR125 and last year i did the top end toward the end of the season. I had left the rings too long because there was a fair amount of blowby. The compression was at about 145-155psi. So i did the whole top end with everything stock. All new gaskets, piston, ring, small end bearing, wrist pin and circlips or course. So i break it in easy. Let it idle for a bit in my garage (up to operating temperature. Then took it out to the track. I drove it for 15 minutes each time and let it cool until the cylinder and radiators were cool to the teach. Each 15 minute session the throttle positions when up. First under 1/4 throttle, 1/2 throttle, 3/4 throttle, and then i gave her a good run and worked her hard. Byt now my compression is at like 135psi! When i deglazed the cylinder i used a 400 grit of wet emerycloth if that helps you.

What could be the problem? What can i do?

Thanks a lot for your help!
 

Yogurt

~SPONSOR~
Dec 25, 1999
218
0
I would go back and torque all the cylinder and head nuts. Could be loose and sucking in some air. Also make sure you have good pipe to cylinder connection. As well as checking your exhaust manifold.
 

dirtsurfer31

Member
Aug 6, 2003
20
0
I tourqued all of the bolts after break in to 20 footlbs and they are still there. I replaced the exhaust manifold gasket and sealed the pipe off with a high temp sylicone. Any one else have any idea?

Thanks
 

Uchytil

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jun 29, 2003
814
9
Not sure what it's supposed to be when new, compression that is, do you know? Was it 145-155 before you tore it down? Did you measure the cylinder, I do and compare all reading to specifications. I hone mine with a ball hone with 220 aluminum oxide grit but only one or two passes, does not remove any material just deglazes. Some guys use scotchbrite green pads. The 400 grit could have removed some plate if you really worked it hard, the carborundum in it is close to the hardness of diamond. May want to measure the bore? Did you over gap the rings? I use a file but am real careful not to go nuts setting the ring gap. I use aftermarket pistons and go by their specifications for their rings. The gasket set you used, what was the base gasket thickness? If it were a thicker than stock gasket it could have effectively heightened your jug thereby decreasing compression. Same with the head gasket. Maybe you can check with the supplier of the gaskets to see if they are thicker than stock (if that's what you had before the top-end job. I'd like to hear what you find out, eh?
 

dirtsurfer31

Member
Aug 6, 2003
20
0
I have heard of those ball hones but what size do i get them at? My clymer manual is the one who suggested 400 grit of emerycloth so i'd think that that wouldn't do any harm. The gaskets as far as i know where stock so maybe i'll order in the base and head gasket and take the cylinder off to measure it. What do you mean by ring gap? I didn't do anything like that?

Thanks
 

Uchytil

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jun 29, 2003
814
9
Digital calipers are great but you cant measure deep enough in the bore. You need a bore gauge (expensive) or at least inside micrometers. You could use snap gauges and outside mikes but it's tricky to get good readings unless your'e a machinist. The ring gap is basic. Go to Eric Gorrs website (you'll notice a link on this page to the left). He has some good pages about top-end jobs. Ring gap is explained. The basic principle is that new rings should be inserted in the cylinder and checked with feeler gauges. Usually you insert the piston and slide the rings down inside and use the top of the piston to align the rings straight. Insert the feeler gauge in the ring gap to see what it is. I think for most of my bikes it's been between .012 and .014. Again, use the specifications for the rings that came with the piston. Usually the rings have a information paper that comes with them that expalins this also. I use Wiesco stuff, they have their own specs included. The ball hone is also explained in the Gorr website, I believe he suggests 10 percent under the bore size (don't quote me). If you have a clymer it should explain about ring gap also. Still wanna know what factory compression normally is for that bike? What piston/ring combination did you use (what brand)?
 

dirtsurfer31

Member
Aug 6, 2003
20
0
Everything was stock honda stuff. So why would you file the ring down? I remember mearuring it but i don't thing i wrote it down (stupid me). Would that effect my compression. I think i might just bring the cylinder to the honda shop for measurements?

I guess the think i don't get is why i had more compression before i did that top end????
 

Uchytil

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jun 29, 2003
814
9
Compression pressure can be tricky. Temperature, how you do it each time, condition of all parts affects the outcome. Did you read the Gorr website, tech articles? The one under top end. There is alot of good stuff explained. The rings can be a problem if the end gap is too tight. That's why you check them and may have to file a little bit. They may have been spot on - who knows. I personally don't like the stock honda pistons and rings. I would use wiesco. Did you check your reeds? Did you replace your reed gasket? Reeds can affect compression also. Don't get too caught up in this since you have changed things and the engine is worn a bit. Go back to the basics and make sure you covered all of them. Isn't it winter there? Or are you riding in the snow....Goog luck.
 

dirtsurfer31

Member
Aug 6, 2003
20
0
Ya, sadly. I haven't riden since october acually. When i first got the bike i had to replace the reeds cause they were frayed. I replaced them with boyeson power reeds. Although i don't think i changed the reed gasket now that i think about it. Would that make a difference though? I just feel like i should have more compression. Maybe mid summer i'll change my whole top end with weisco and check the cylinder and rings to make sure they are to proper specs. This wouldn't damage my engine at all would it?

Thanks
 

Uchytil

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jun 29, 2003
814
9
The lower compression (your worry) shouldn't be an issue. Most definetly check your reeds when you do the top end. I have the boyeson power reeds in one of my Crs and they help real well with low end but flutter on top. Maybe if you rip hard you frayed or lifted them. You can check them with a feeler gauge or by eye for lift. They should set flat. new gaskets are always a must - I think. FYI, I heard from other sources the stock honda stuff is not as tight and may cause a little piston noise. That said I went to wiesco for my needs, howvere, there are other aftermarket pistons/rings out there. You should ask others in this site for their opinion. A dude named Marcus Gunby is on top of the CRs, he usually lurks in the 2 stroke threads. Anyway, good luck and keep in touch.
 

dirtsurfer31

Member
Aug 6, 2003
20
0
so should i still get my cylinder checked or is it just because of the stock piston. I've heard that wiesco will seize a lot quicker which it why i steared away from wiesco. The last thing i want is a one peice motor. I have heard about piston sizing aswell. The A B C D thing. How do i know what letter my cylinder is to match the piston?
 

dirtsurfer31

Member
Aug 6, 2003
20
0
oh and would that gasket cause a loss of compression? I'm going to replace it anyways but i was just wondering.

Thanks for your help
 

joe28kdx

Member
Sep 28, 2001
235
0
A thicker base gasket will move the head AWAY from the piston, (Think of your fist moving in a tube. The air is squished smaller and smaller as your fist moves closed and closer to the top, more PSI. Got it?? Like a pump up water gun.
Rings have to be a complete circle, if there is a gap, the squished air pushed through the gap and you get lower PSI.
Got it??
If you think of what's happening when the piston comes up to fire you can see it's pretty simple, the rings seal the piston, which squished the air/fuel charge, then spark/fire, explosion, the air heats up and exspands, the PSI moves the piston and wham it starts all over again.
Before you freak, try this;
Take the spark plug out, squirt some oil in the cylinder and run a compression test, (Full throttle, spark plug in the wire, against frame so you don't short out your ignition).
The oil will seal the rings/cylinder wall for a short time.
What was the first, "hit"?? then the final??
If it goes up your rings aren't seatin the cylinder.
Could be a bad cylinder, (although I doubt it), ring gap too large, ring gap lined up instead of at 10 and 2 oclock.
When you honed your cylinder did you clean out the hone waste???? Did you dry hone it or wet??
I use a flexable stone hone, 400 grit like 3 seconds just to break the glaze, lube everything with kero or deisel fuel, then dip the whole cylinder in solvent to clean it, then brake clean sprayed all over, then blow it dry and wipe it with a paper towel. The cross hatching should be like 60 degrees.
When ever I pop the top off, I check the reeds. For the $2.00 for the gasket it's worth it, your there, make the job complete.
I also take silcone and run a bead across where the reed gasket meets the head and reed block. Ever look at that area when it dusty, a oily film on it?? Fuel seeping out. Silcone seals it up tight.
Try the oil and let us know.
Good luck and take NOTHING for granted on this! :)
Joe :)
I go slow cuz I payed good money to race and I want to enjoy every minute of it! :)
 

Uchytil

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jun 29, 2003
814
9
The gasket on the cylinder side will cause a loss so will lifted or frayed reeds. Not sure what the 00 CR125 has for a seal i on the cyl side of the reeds though. Remember that when the reeds intake they draw air in and seal off the cylinder after they close. Don't worry about the wiesco pistons, they are good to go. The CR cyliders (to my knowledge) don't have the designation. The YZ's do (a-b-c-d) but the wiesco is one-size-fits-all anyway. Go back to the basics (Gorrs website and search in this site for top end rebuilds, there's just too much to list to do). I DO NOT recommend a expandable hone (the 3 stone type) you can break the ports in 2-strokes. Stick with the method you used or a ball hone.
 

dirtsurfer31

Member
Aug 6, 2003
20
0
I'm not sure if i can do a compression test right now because it is -20'C. That will lower the PSI will it not?

One other thing i forgot to do was wash out the cylinder after deglazing it. (kicking self) Would this have caused problems? I honed it wet with water. I hope that isn't the problem

Isn't there only one way the ring can go on? There is a little not in the rings gap which i set the ring in.
 

Uchytil

LIFETIME SPONSOR
Jun 29, 2003
814
9
The rings go on one way. The little pin in the ring groove of the piston keeps them from rotating in the bore. The gap must be located there. Usually any markings on rings would face up. Yes the cylinder should be washed in wam soapy water, rinsed, and dryed prior to assembly. Have you read the different threads on top-end rebuilds yet? They offer up most of this information. I would not worry about compression right now just the basic stuff. If it's that cold you may want to tear down the top end and check out what's up. You may have prematurely worn down the rings by leaving grit in the cylinder from the wet sanding.
 

joe28kdx

Member
Sep 28, 2001
235
0
Your right about the wear from the grit.
My son did his first top end rebuild on his KTM a few weeks ago.
He installed a new piston, poped the rings on and slide the cylinder on.
I quized him about the ring location, (the pin the holds it in place, the way the ring is insatlled, (up or down)).
He gave that basic teenager look. AAAAAHHHHHHH??????
When we poped the cylinder off, sure enough the ring was in the wrong location, he said it went together easy, (The cylinder over the piston/ring).
I thought you'd break the ring or not be able to get it to go in the cylinder, but I guess it can!
The ring gap was good, piston to cylinder gap good, so I guess it can go together wrong.
I'm thinking the grit took the rings out. I hope the cylinders ok.
I've been using my 3 stone hone now, since "83???, I've yet to ruin a port, (maybe the edges of the stone are rounded so they don't hit the ports)????
I hade some ball hones, but guys borrow then and they come back-somethimes.
I'd try the oil in the cylinder. Do a test the compression, (even cold) run a compression test, add the oil, do it again, and see if it goes up), if not then rip her down.
You might be able to see if the reeds are bad, take the carb off, have someone kick 'er over and with your hand where the carb goes into the intake. You might be able to feel a, pulse of air being pushed out, (but I kinda doubt it, if it was that bad it would be hard to start and run like ****.
Let us know.
Joe
 

dirtsurfer31

Member
Aug 6, 2003
20
0
ok, i'll do the oil compression test tomorow. My subframe is off right now so i'm gonna pop the carb off, check the reeds, get a new gasket for it and everything. I'll let you know how it goes.

One other question, you have to do the proper break in with a new ring don't you?
 

dirtsurfer31

Member
Aug 6, 2003
20
0
I haven't done the compression test yet because it has been way too cold.(About -30'C) So i thought i check up on looking for a ball or flex hone for my cylinder. In Eric Gorr's performance handbook it said to get a hone that is 10% smaller then the bore diameter. So checked at UAP NAPA and they said there was a jump from 45mm or 41mm to a 51mm. With that 10% the size of the hone should be a 48.5mm and a 240 grit. The only thing is that the 45mm only comes in a 140 grit? Should i go with the 51mm or what?

I'll get back to u about the compression in a couple days.

Thanks
 
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…