Your input please

BadgerMan

Mi. Trail Riders
Jan 1, 2001
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fatherandson said:
The width requirements (24 and 50) should be enforced and parallel trail systems should be used.

:nod:

End of discussion...... :laugh:
 

3KDXXR2

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Jan 3, 2002
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Yeah What Mike Said
 

Tom Dixon

Farmer Tom = Face Planter
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(Gov. Arnold S. voice on)
Ahnold has spoken. Now you sissy gurls can stop talking!
(voice off)

Okay but really, I agree that an agreement needs to be made to satisfy both parties so this "eco-civil war" can end between the ORV community. Whether it be militant forces or parallel trails... :ohmy:
I've talked to some ATV riders that pride themselves in "opening up the tight trails for everyone".
I too have heard such talk from quad riders, at Jackpine no less! Although I kept my lips sealed, I was quite furious at their "mocking" attitude towards destroying quality bike trails. Obviously, the irresponsible minority is wrecking it for the rest of us.

Okay, I'm done...
 

bbarel

Mi. Trail Riders
Member
Apr 13, 2003
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fatherandson said:
The width requirements (24 and 50) should be enforced and parallel trail systems should be used.
Shoot first ask questions later! :debil: Good point about enforcement. Don't see much if any of that.
 

TCTrailrider

Member
Jan 19, 2004
980
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Strong enforcement with harsh penalties. DNR should patrol single track with a portable crusher. Quad on a single track, into the crusher. Wouldn't take long for the word to spread. If they would let me do the crushing I'd even pay for it. :nod: Now that would be fun. :laugh:
 

katoom125

Member
Apr 25, 2004
355
1

i didn't want to say it myself but i love your thought processes - I'd help pay too (if i could help with the crusher) - would that qualify as having a bad attitude or just the fact that too many of our trails are being ruined?
 

BadgerMan

Mi. Trail Riders
Jan 1, 2001
2,479
10
Instead of fining them or crushing their “rides”, sentence them to a day of trail maintenance for the first offense. Specifically, have them ride the trails on their “utility vehicles” and pick up the trash left by their fellow riders. IMO, they would then be using their quad for its intended purpose.
 

70 marlin

Mi. Trail Riders
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fatherandson said:
The width requirements (24 and 50) should be enforced and parallel trail systems should be used.

Ditto!
 

KTM Mike

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SGJ_Johansen said:
I support a dual trail system, one for bikes and one for ATV's.

Brian

:cool:

That, with the enforcement, keeps everyone happy.

Now, if i did not know and like all you guys so much, I would think you might seriously be ' dissen (how is that spelled anyhow?) my wife and one of my kids.
 

YZMAN400

Member
Dec 2, 2003
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MWEISSEN said:
I think the parallel trail systems have shown that ATV's will leave single track alone so that both groups get a quality ride. This is more indicative that opening forest roads would probably greatly reduce the damage of 24/40" trail caused by ATV's

Id say your right on there. Lincoln Hills has pretty much remained the same trail it has been over the last few years that I have been doing trail mainenantce out there. The ATV guys seem to be staying outta there.

Ya know it occured to me the othere day. After listening to a very loud anti biker bark on another board where Jeremy has been defending us. I dont think the quad guys understand what it is that we like in single track.

In other states the trail is nasty enough in quad to Jeep width to keep us bikers entertained for days, Moab for instance. But Michigan is flat for the most part, with the exception of a few trails here and there. The only thing we have to work with to make a trail interesting is the trees. Keep the trail tight and wind it thru the trees. If every thing was opened up to 50-60" it would like riding a straight flat highway. And I dont think the quad guys understand that those kinds of trails are boring as hell to us. There is a lot more to trail riding than twisting the throttle and pointing it straight while trying to figure out how many gears you have.

Then there is the issue of safety. The 60" trail on a busy weekend is downright scary. I cant count how many times I have almost been taken out by some quad/bikers that are just holding the throttle wide open. People just dont think when on the wide trails. I am amazed that I dont hear about more accidents on those trails than I do.

So there it is. Just a few more thoughts to add to the mix.
 
O

(over) 50

I've read comments on this site lots of times and thought I might add my two cents.It would be great if a single track trail could be run within thirty or forty yards of the original trail,and use the same crossings for roads and streams. Tin Cup and Lincoln Hills seems to be a good example of a dual trail system.I have both bike and quad and can see both sides of the issue.The quad people are starting to get their act together ,the Michigan ATV Asso. is a couple years old and they promote youth training and organize group rides. We are all in this together and numbers count.I've ridden with some of you guys the last couple of years and hope to again. Think spring!
 

Z-8

Mi. Trail Riders
Member
Jul 25, 2005
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Great discussion guys! Sounds like the parallel trail system has a lot of support (certainly has mine).
What is it going to take to make these parallel trails a reality? Do we need some $50,000 EA studies, or would a D.O. work? Let's get something started (raise money for a quad crusher?).
RUZZ
 

salgeek

Member
Oct 2, 2003
712
0
Would you support making it illegal for ATVs to ride on trails maintained to 40"?

Yes. But do we have any maintained to 40" trail left other than near Holton or Drummond? CCC membership cleared the Tomahawk trail to the 50" top to bottom spec at the June '05 trail tour and tore down the triangles with the motorcyles on them (meaning maintained to 40") - WTF?

It irritates me that the CYCLE conservation club is collecting the dues and sign-up fees of mostly motorcyclists and then turns around and clears trail beyond the 40" spec.

For a group devoted to Off-Highway Motorcycle Recreation and duty-bound to a constitution that begins:
"The purposes for which this Association is formed are as follows: to develop, maintain and enjoy motorcycle riding trails where families can ride, beginners can learn and sportsmen can find the true beauty of nature without danger from traffic or conflict with other activities….."

ugh.. and how the heck did the word ATV creep into the constitution of the CCC - seems inconsistent with the purpose stated above.

thanks for asking 2trackR .
 
Last edited:

woodsy

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Jan 16, 2002
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Welcome Over 50!! Oh - and dont feel alone about being so!! ;)
I agree whole hardely with your comment and hope that someday soon we can have EXACTLY what you are suggesting!! Only I am a real dreamer and am rooting for the return of our land to be Open unless posted closed... Anyway, I just wanted to welcome you and encourage you to grab a name/register and post more!!
Woodsy :ride:
 

2TrakR

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Jan 1, 2002
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Salgeek - I'm not aware of the CCC membership replacing triangles on the Tomahawk system. Brian J does the majority of the maintenance and he's very pro-cycle. I have not noticed the triangles that have ATVs on them on that trail, but I may have missed them. There was recent discussion regarding that trail between Brian (Tomahawk) the DNR and the CCC. Brian was very adamant about keeping all of the loops as cycle trail, in opposition of the DNR wanting to make the A Loop a 50" trail.

As for the constitution - re-read the posted section and then read a bit further down. First it says "motorcycle riding trails" not "cycle only trails" and further down, in membership:
1. Active Members shall be Motorcycle and ATV enthusiasts who wish to participate in Cycle Conservation Club programs.

Does not mean we don't work in the cycler's best interest either way.
 

salgeek

Member
Oct 2, 2003
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Great to here BrianJ is very adamant about keeping all of the loops as cycle trail, in opposition of the DNR wanting to make the A Loop a 50" trail.

2TrackR, thanks for setting me straight - regarding the fact that it was the Atlanta trail and not the Tomahawk trail that was cut to 50" in 2005.

I wish I knew if the CCC board and officers share BrianJ's energy to keep the loops cycle trail? I'm really not trying to be funny. I read the TrailRider publication and meeting minutes without fail; but, I don't know what the leaderships' goals are with respect to trail widths.

Recently, TrailRider made reference to "encouraging some ATV user groups to join the CCC as chapters" With this developement does that mean some BOG's want 50" trail and some want 40" cycle trail? Is this in alignment with membership?
 

2TrakR

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Jan 1, 2002
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I wish I knew if the CCC board and officers share BrianJ's energy to keep the loops cycle trail? but, I don't know what the leaderships' goals are with respect to trail widths.

I strongly encourage you to contact the Board and express your views so they know. The more communication the Board has with membership, the better informed they will be. I brought the concerns you had to the Board last fall, but there is nothing like hearing directly from the members instead of hearing it through another Board member. We need more of this.

The Board made a motion to support the action of the DNR, as initially described in this thread, which should answer your question. I need to say that I abstained from this vote, as such a position is not in our best long term interest. At the time of the vote, I did not have enough information on the situation. I have since contacted the DNR person who is proposing this and gotten most of the information I didn't have. I would now vote against the proposal as it currently stands.

There's no doubt that most cycle riders prefer "cycle" trail, I am one of them. We, as an organization, need to support such trail. We also need to ensure riding opportunity exists for all of us, for a long, long time.

From the studies done by the State and my own experiences, I believe that more cycles put in more miles on the trails, than ATVs. That includes the understanding that ATVs outsell cycles by 4 to 1 (or 80% of new sales are ATVs). Thus, using this logic, it would be clear that this Director's Order bit will be good for cycles (ie us) and have relatively little harm. Especially when we are more organized and have greater [organized] numbers. On the surface, this makes sense.

There are two problems with locking people out of public land in this situation, however. I'll start with the lesser impact.

The ATV crowd will be very, very upset when they find out the cycle guys are trying to lock them out. Many won't be highly agitated, but they sure ain't gonna work to help us in the future. Their numbers are growing every day. ATVOC already exceeds the membership numbers of most cycle clubs. Heck, they had an informal ride in January at Leota and had over 100 riders show up (no charge, no event, just come ride and have a hot dog deal). SORVA is growing in the UP. They just added another county/chapter (Luce county). They plan to have a chapter in each county with plans to expand beyond that and active members who want to see things happen. It's not _if_ ATV riders will become organized and a political power, it's _when_. We need to work together to be able to have some influence in the future. If we are not partnered with the ATV crowd, they will have the larger voice and we will lose out. This does not mean we lose cycle trail and end up with roads for riding, this means we are proactive and ensure that all ORV riders have similar opportunity for riding. This "proactive" means we work for and with ATV riders to ensure they work for and with us to keep cycle trail available.

More important reason to not support this, the way it currently stands, is the DNR's motivation for it. The State has recently taken up Forest Certification. Although we passed and received certification, there were major issues. One of the biggest issues is illegal ORV use (ORV includes cycles). The DNR has already made statements that ORVs may become illegal on State land due to this issue. Some of the items that fail certification are when braided trail is created, erosion of any sort happens which of course includes mud holes that are wallowed out and whenever ORVs stray off their designated paths. I don't agree with FC and think this is all a crock, but, that won't change what the State is doing.
When Gladwin was closed, it was due to environmental issues. One of their current excuses to keep one of the [now fixed] loops closed is that braided trail will happen - ie more damage and more FC failure. With that loop mostly closed, other trail systems have picked up the burden of the additional traffic. Geels now sees more traffic and is being whooped out faster than before. Even worse are the mudholes that have gotten out of hand on Geels (because of the additional traffic). If we can't get those holes fixed soon, it will become the next trail on our list of "used to have a trail there". More traffic concentrated on fewer trails destroys those trails very quickly.
Evart is one of the trails listed for this "closed to anything with more than 2 wheels" rule. Evart already is fifty percent open to ATVs (as in they fit and ride on it; the trail has never been a 50" trail). By closing it to quads, that traffic will have to go elsewhere and put additional pressure on that other trail. That or the ATVs will still ride the trail or the surrounding area - illegally. That illegal ORV use is still _illegal ORV use_ and will be cited by the DNR as the reason we are failing forest certification and thus, why ORVs will have to be outlawed on State land.
We know that COs will not be sitting at a trail head waiting for ATVs to unload and write tickets. They don't enforce the rules we have now in many problem areas. Hoping that making it illegal for an ATV to ride certain trails will suddenly solve the bigger issue is wishful thinking at best.
Making it illegal for anything other than a two wheeler to use most of the west side trails in the State will force the traffic that would be on them over to other systems, those systems will then suffer and be closed down by the DNR due to "damage". Of course the trails that are designated cycle only will still have (now) illegal ATV traffic on them and also suffer this damage. Remember, just braided trail is enough for the DNR to freak out about. Since even making it illegal for ATVs to ride cycle trails didn't stop the damage the DNR will be left with no choice but to shut those few remaining trails down. Seriously. All Gone.

Even the Dual Sport crowd has been hit with Forest Certification issues. Routes that we've used for _years_ in Atlanta have already been denied this year.

This is not to say that we can't protect or extend single track, because it is possible and important to do. What we need to do is work with the ATV crowd and get joint support for the ORV system - and in doing so put in similar opportunity for most ORVs. This would be done by providing riding options for ATVs near Evart. For example, turn the existing trail into a 50" trail and put a parallel single track in place. Share road crossings, etc. Just like the MCCCT and ORV trail in the Meadows system. Then mark the single track as "cycle only". No Director's Order needed, as there won't be ATVs on the single track when they have riding options just 20' to the right. This has been proven to work in the Meadows system as well as Little Manistee and others. Going this way, we get full support from the ATV crowd, we as ORV enthusiast gain a larger voice overall and we reduce the overall load on many trails.

The DNR has been charged legislatively to put another 25% more trail on the ground. Trail meaning more ORV options and could include Route or Trail. This might net us another 750 miles of ORV something. We should all get together and push the DNR to put this new milage down in ways that will best benefit _all_ of us and in turn the ORV system. If any of us get greedy we will all lose as the DNR will win and evict us when they get the opportunity. Don't think so? Do you remember far enough back to when the forest roads in the lower peninsula were open? How about before the designated trail system when we could ride any trail out there, marked or not? Geez that used to be fun.

Recently, TrailRider made reference to "encouraging some ATV user groups to join the CCC as chapters"

This falls back to the "making friends of ATVs instead of making enemies". If the CCC is to grow it's membership base, ATV riders are left, there is not substantial growth available in cycle riders.
The last survey the CCC took showed that a majority of it's membership had ATVs. A good percentage of ATVOC are also CCC members.
I believe most efforts to bring in ATV membership has failed so far.
GLDS is in preliminary talks with ATVOC to put the August event at Geels on jointly. Our (as in GLDS) motivation for this is not to bring the CCC memberships, but to foster that partnership that I described above.

With this developement does that mean some BOG's want 50" trail and some want 40" cycle trail? Is this in alignment with membership?

The first question is difficult for me to answer. Based on discussions and votes, it's my conclusion that there are some BOG that want to see both trail (including me) and some that may only care about 40" trail. As above, I strongly encourage you to ask them individually. As for the second question, I think our membership was reflected pretty well in this thread (realizing the answers given were generally from those heavily biased towards single track). Few are hard core and only want cycle trail. Most want to ride and don't want to see opportunities taken away from others - at the same time would prefer single track. There are some that think 50" is dang narrow too. I've ridden Dual Sport with guys who were freaked right out on anything narrower than a snowmobile trail (and they are CCC members). Figure that our Trail Tours are only on 50" trail and we consistently pull 250+ riders at these events, if they didn't like 50" trail they would spend their riding time elsewhere.
 

morgan

Member
Nov 30, 2001
173
1
Thanks for the write up Jeramey---good stuff.

Evidently Forest Certification is at the core of this whole issue. Man, just what we need---bigger government and more audits/hoops to jump through.

Here is a cool article that gives some insight into the Forest Certification program: http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10369_36152-125628--,00.html

I've seen it all before when I was in the service: #1-and audit team comes in and identifies "problems". #2-everyone goes way overboard trying to right the wrongs and cover their butts. #3-in the end the main mission of the unit is compromised because of this self sustaining bureaucracy.

Too bad our livelihood got caught up in all of this.

Gotta go, have tin foil hats to make. :)
 

woodsy

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Jan 16, 2002
2,933
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YESSSS, oh yesssss, ol Woodsy still remembers the days vividly of Open unless posted close and the MILES AND MILES of open two tracks in the Lower State that provided HOURS AND HOURS of unequalled, unharressed FUN!!! Jeramy is talking about what we ALL really want guys - and he is not joking about it falling back to making friends/comrades of the ATVers. I think even farther down the Two Track then that though... We need anyone and EVERYONE who uses our land to join hands and get our land back.. WE need the Hunters, Fishers, ATVer, ATCers, Snowmobilers and Horseback riders (yep - there is a push from the greenies to exclude them from public land us too) to NOT be greedy but to join hands and let our Government know that we want our land back...... I see the point of the CCC being a Cycle Org so we should be somewhat careful in addressing non-cycling issues and welcoming non-cycling folks into the midst BUT - if the course of doing so is one that has the BIG PICTURE of the original CCC mission in focus - well,,,,, sometimes ya gotta to what cha gotta to for the missions sake....


Hey Morgan, take a close overview of Katrina and you WILL see the outcome of EXACTLY what you are speaking... Its a shame too because, IMHO, its really a result of wayyyyyyyyy to much Government Red Tape/involvement in the first place arrrggggggggg.... Gotta stop, my BP is rising :laugh:
 

YZMAN400

Member
Dec 2, 2003
2,491
0
Ya know I was just thinking. As I was reading 2trackr's coments about the braided trail and the trouble it causes I wondered. Part of the problem is that the people that cause the trail problems atv and dirtbikers alike, just dont understand the problems that they are causing. These people are not a member of any kind of offroad organization. They just want to ride at any cost. These people are just the minority of the overall orv population but they are the ones that are in the public eye.

Has the CCC ever thought about a advertising campain say on the tv via comercials. The trouble makers are not going to go out looking to be educated on the proper way to use the trail system. We need to find them and show them the way. Maybe a spot when the SX is on or something. Just a thought. I know these things probably cost major $ though.

Point is how to get the word out to the people that are pretty much unreachable thru normal means ie CCC mags or local clubs. Maybe having a rider education weekend event at a popular trailhead??

I dont know maybe I am just rambling....
 

morgan

Member
Nov 30, 2001
173
1
Yeah, that's been a problem of a lot of pastimes---educating the ignorant (not meaning ignorant to be a derogatory term). But you know, on some level these types have to know what they are doing is wrong. And you're always going to have the types who see their $16.25 sticker as a pass to "do what the hell they want" in the persuit of impressing their like minded buddies.

Peer pressure has always been a prime motivator. A friendly reminder that flat tracking in the parking lot isn't a good idea, a reminder that your loud exhaust is killing the sport, a reminder that tearing up a hill side ain't helping, etc..........

Also a refusal to ride with these types bears weight. They'll have no one to ride with (or bum beer off of) if everyone is tired of their crap.
 

2TrakR

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Mi. Trail Riders
Jan 1, 2002
794
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A good portion of the majority will take a bypass on a mudhole or other (say, severe whoops) and unintentionally add to the braided trail issue. That's such a tough situation to resolve, but education and staying on top of a trail (as maintainers/maintenance/grading) would be the logical steps to take.

Don - you have great ideas. The dollars needed to do something like that are probably out of our reach. There may be another way, that being to partner with Tread Lightly or the BRC or similar and jointly work on spreading the message. I wouldn't be surprised to find grant dollars available for this. It's quite a task when the very basic message, that being the ORV handbook that is supposed to come with your ORV stickers, is never handed out to begin with.
There are lots of ideas along this line. One guy has pushed to get the ORV pamphlets to be available at the State Welcome Centers, like the snowmobilers do. I think there is some progress in this area, but am not sure.
The CCC makes copies of it's magazine available at any dealer who will let us, but there's really no key message in there about good trail practice - it's more of an understood value. The mag in itself doesn't push the message, but if people join and become active, the message will usually be absorbed.
Putting more material at the trailheads wouldn't hurt. Some have decent tread lightly brochures and some are lacking. Making the major problem items very clear certainly won't hurt.
I always thought putting the snowmobile trail signs out there on the ORV trails that say "Stay on Trail" would be good little reminders for key areas. The one Rec Tech that I approached this idea with didn't think it would help and that sign was not part of the ORV Trail Sign Program. Dunno, thought it could be helpful.
 
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