CEL Needle

[CaptainObvious]

The 1174 has a larger diameter than the 1172 (2.745 vs. 2.725) so it is a leaner needle on the diameter only. They share the same taper and I assume L1 (since you didn’t provide it). I would suggest that you use needles that reference the Keihin part numbers. These numbers are much easier to understand. For instance, the 1173N needle crosses over to a BGN.

What part of the needle do you want leaner? There are three sections to a needle, all affecting the characteristics of the jetting. The first letter is the taper. A “C” needle is leaner than an “A” from ½ to ¾ throttle. The second letter is the L1 (length) that affects when the taper of the needle comes into play. This can be adjusted with the clip and is effective from 1/8th to ¾ throttle. The last letter is the diameter. The higher the alphabet number, the leaner the needle. The section has the greatest effect from 1/8 to ¼ throttle.

Of course, a change in the needle will likely require a change in the jets. What modifications and jets are you running on your 220?

 

[alan250f]

Thanks for the reply, however, I'm now more confused. There seem to be hundreds of different combinations at Sudco! If anyone knows if a 1174 is richer or leaner then my stock 1173, please let me know. I'm pretty close on jetting now, but the clip is at the top of the needle, and still a little fat at 1/8 throttle.

BTW, it's a '99 220, stock except PC pipe and silencer, airbox lid off, 35 pilot, 140 main, sealevel.

 

[G. Gearloose]

Originally posted by RV6junkie
The 1174 has a larger diameter than the 1172 (2.745 vs. 2.725) so it is a leaner needle on the diameter only.

RV6 had answered you thoroughly already. 1173 is 2.735.

 

[G. Gearloose]

With the #6 slide, today the CEL-2/38 was even more mushy just off idle then the CEK-2/38, and the AS seams less effective to dial it out. But thats a good data point..next CEK-2/40, or CEJ before concluding the C needle doesn't suit my lackluster pace.

 

[alan250f]

Originally posted by RV6junkie
The 1174 has a larger diameter than the 1172 (2.745 vs. 2.725) so it is a leaner needle on the diameter only. They share the same taper and I assume L1 (since you didn’t provide it). I would suggest that you use needles that reference the Keihin part numbers. These numbers are much easier to understand. For instance, the 1173N needle crosses over to a BGN.

Thanks a bunch, sorry for my previous post, I somehow didn't read yours before I wrote it.

 

[r.2 stroke]

To Alan250f:the stock needle for the 220 is a R1173L,the R1172L is richer and the R1174L is leaner,the difference is in the diameter of the needles only,needle taper and length remain the same for these three needles,these are kawasaki OEM needles,in my opinion,the closest Kehin needles are:a BGP for stock,a BGN for richer,and a BGQ FOR leaner.
I stand to be corrected if i am wrong :flame:

 

[canyncarvr]

For the sake of specificity (and just to be a PITA??;)) a bit of fine tuning...

Comparison of AEN and CEN needles (for example...AEL/CEL shows the same result btw) shows them to be of equal profile from zip to just past 1/8 throttle. The AEN starts getting richer at that point (its taper starting earlier because the taper º is smaller), continues to be richer until just below 1/2 throttle. The two profiles cross at that point and with further throttle, the CEN continues to get more rich to an end result of approx. 5% greater fuel mixture at full throttle.

Gearloose: Before you give up on the 'C'....

Mushy? Poor throttle response? A good idea to try a 40p over the 38p, given that the 'L' was worse than the 'K'. Howabout try a 3 clip with the 38p, with either/both the CEL/CEK? Clip position does get pretty close to the bottom of the throttle.

Oh...the A/F mixture curve and throttle position graph information is from JD's spreadsheet, the newer version that takes into account pilots and slides. A very handy tool to 'run' your ideas on a computer before you try them in your scooter.

re: 'closest' needles

That is an issue. The proprietary kawi needles sometimes require interpolation to determine a keihin cross, said mathematics supplying only a guess.

 

[rethnal]

OK.... I give! Where is JD's Spreadsheet? :)

 

[G. Gearloose]

Yup, I tried the CEK-3/38 last year, and it was less wild then CEK-2 or CEL-2 /38, but evidence from sound, smoke and plug suggested it could run cleaner.
The CEK-2 (as well as the CEL) is a handfull if the revs creep up, it pulls hard and begins to care less about where the throttle is set to. 1/4 throttle pulls about as hard as 3/4 throttle until the revs climb above 6-7k or so. Could be fun in the cornfields or for an agressive rider, but I'll hurt myself in the woods. I'm accustomed to more direct control. The bike would spank a novice.

So the aim is to get more linear throttle control without turning it back into a spooge factory.

Also, speaking of throttle responce, its as if I have a binary throttle up to about 2 -2.5 kRPM. It has become more significant since straying from the 1173,
Off idle, it pulls up to this threashold at a very constant, dull torque, extreemly independant of throttle position, (as long as its off-idle). Then it kicks in, always at the same rpm, throttle response is there, and pulls hard.
AS and needle adjustments affect the strength of the engine in this idle-2500 range, but not the rpm that it transitions. So setting the AS optimally can get me through and over this transition sooner, but not affect the rpm it occurs.

This has made me suspect of the DF1 valve.
CC, do you remember the symtom that made the DF1 valve a flop for the KDX application? Any resemblance to this weirdness?

 

[canyncarvr]

If one were to be curious about the james dean jetting guide, one could click on the url hidden in this sentence to get there.

heh heh...sometimes I'm so funny I just kill myself.

Or I could be just simpleminded. ;)


Gearloose:
'..it pulls up to this threashold at a very constant, dull torque.'

I'd say that's about it.


Cheers!

 

[G. Gearloose]

Thanks CC, that gives me the gumtion to try some other combos. :thumb: