In scanning throughout all the various forums, both here and elsewhere, it appears that some promoters and sanctioning bodies are trying to keep the 2T from extinction by offering seperate classes. I beleive some of the major organizations that feature school boy classes are going to offer a seperate 2T class. This ploy has been used for years by the various kart racing organizations. More specifically seperation of piston port motors from those with reeds, air cooled vs water cooled MX style powerplants, etc. In discussing this, has anyone been made aware if their local "circuit" is considering the adopting of similar class seperations?
Classes To Sustain The 2 Stroke
- Thread starter duke
- Start date
- Aug 2, 2000
- 13,510
- 19
if technology cannot keep up, too bad. Kawasaki has seen the light. The rest will soon.
Extinction is not a "bad" thing. Life would be a bit tougher if T. Rexes and saber tooth tigers were running around rampant.
Extinction is not a "bad" thing. Life would be a bit tougher if T. Rexes and saber tooth tigers were running around rampant.
gwcrim
~SPONSOR~
- Oct 3, 2002
- 1,881
- 0
Keep up???? Geeze... they have to allow 4 pokes twice the displacement in order to compete!!! A level playing field in regards to displacement sounds pretty fair to me. No one in their right mind would race a same size 4 poke against a 2 smoke.
Admit it Pred, 2 strokes RULE! They're only being legislated out of existence. Darwin didn't take that into consideration.
Admit it Pred, 2 strokes RULE! They're only being legislated out of existence. Darwin didn't take that into consideration.
- Aug 2, 2000
- 13,510
- 19
legislated schmegislated. I haven't seen a 450F win the SX title yet.
And Stewart can blame the bike all he wants. Trade with RC and he'll still get whupped.
still can't believe I defend the leprechaun :|
And Stewart can blame the bike all he wants. Trade with RC and he'll still get whupped.
still can't believe I defend the leprechaun :|
They don't need a special class, just an even playing feild. Drop minimum weight limits and the double displacement advantage for 4-strokes for all displacement limited classes. Then, rather than haveing displacement limits for the premier class, make it a run-what-you-brung class, that way people can race 300cc 2-strokes, 525cc 4 strokes, or whatever they like, no restrictions whatsoever. Make the tiddler class limited to 125cc's period, dito for the 250 class. Racing would be better imho and we would get some truely awsome production bikes trickeled down from the open class.
XRpredator said:
Technology ? It has nothing to do with technology....Actually you've got it backwards...If a smaller, lighter, less expensive motor can put out almost as much HP as a motor twice it's size it would seem that the smaller motor is more technologically advanced.
I'll tell you what, if the manufacturers actually come out with a 250cc 4 stroke that's just as fast or faster than a 250cc 2 stroke then you can talk about technology.
It's all about the EPA....We're already on the slippery slope to offroad riding extinction.
SpectraSVT
Member
- Apr 17, 2002
- 720
- 0
Unless your triyng to become a pro where every edge counts I can't see the 2 stroke going out of existence. Nobody but the top pros use all of the bikes. Whatever bike you feel comfortable on is what you will go fast on.
So far I haven't seen any 2stroke only races yet around here. I don't race with all the MX organizations so I don't know if some have started.
So far I haven't seen any 2stroke only races yet around here. I don't race with all the MX organizations so I don't know if some have started.
Devourment 138
Member
- Mar 28, 2004
- 10
- 0
gwcrim said:
exactly... less $$ and maint., more reliable, and more HP per displacement. If they came out today they would be marked as a revolution in design. They are telling you what to ride/race on a CLOSED course, and you dont even realize it...most just go with the flow. ...oh well.
- Thread starter
- #13
By offering a separate 2 stroke class, most everyone would benefit; riders, manufacturers and promoters alike. The market for 2T would still be strong enough to merit continued production and refinement. Those still yearning to race a 2T would be satisfied. And of course, the promoters would have larger gates since most everyone's racing taste would be satisfied. Its this same principle which allows for decent racer turn outs at the local kart tracks.
XRpredator said:
That really pisses me off, four strokes need almost or twice the displacement to play with the 2 strokes. I am not really a four poke hater either, but I love the simplicity and ease of maintenance on the two. I know were this discussion is headed into one of those us vs them type things and I am not really like that. I just thing that the playing field needs to be leveled. If you were to race cc to cc 4 strokes would be killed unless you have a better rider.
Offroad motorcycles manufactured in 2006 and later, including machines intended for 'closed course' use, will be subject to EPA emissions standards in the US unless exempted for competition-use-only. If you read the FAQ below, you'll see that even if a manufacturer designates a machine as exempt, then it may only be legally ridden during sanctioned racing events.
So either the manufacturers will exempt motocross bikes, and we'll all have to practice ride illegally, or else they'll try and get them emissions certified, for which I think the four strokes stand a much better chance than the two stroke.
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/nonroad/2002/f02045.pdf
So either the manufacturers will exempt motocross bikes, and we'll all have to practice ride illegally, or else they'll try and get them emissions certified, for which I think the four strokes stand a much better chance than the two stroke.
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/nonroad/2002/f02045.pdf
pace said:
Good job Pace...Everyone listen up..The move to 4 strokes is an EPA issue..Not because Yamaha wanted to offer the public an alternative...
The motorcycle enthusiast is paying dearly for this and we've begun to ride the slippery slope that will lead to offroad riding being outlawed....
As motorcyclists, we need to keep ourselves armed with the info on the tactics used by agencies that take away our right to ride and we need to be knowledgeable of where the politicians stand on every issue.
Yup.. this is an EPA issue, not something forced upon us by the AMA. According to the EPA regulations for example, it would not even be legal next year for Ricky to practice during the week between Supercross events on a 2006 RM250. Unless that is, the manufacturers can get two strokes clean enough to pass the EPA emissions standards by 2006. That seems unlikely. The FAQ implies that four-stroke machines will probably pass the EPA emissions standards without additional emissions devices.
Reportedly, the EPA actually wanted to limit the exemption clause to 'professional' racing, but the AMA demonstrated to them that would potentially compromise a large number of amateur racers (as if the 'no-recreation' clause doesn't compromise our ability to race anyway). The AMA tried to get the EPA to enforce different emissions standards for two-strokes and four-strokes for the 2006 regulations, but they refused.
The two-stroke will need to clean up, or it will effectively be killed by the 2006 regulations; who wants a bike that can only be raced. That will massively reduce the market value, and manufacturers will respond accordingly. I fear that I'll be hanging on to my '03 for a long time.
Reportedly, the EPA actually wanted to limit the exemption clause to 'professional' racing, but the AMA demonstrated to them that would potentially compromise a large number of amateur racers (as if the 'no-recreation' clause doesn't compromise our ability to race anyway). The AMA tried to get the EPA to enforce different emissions standards for two-strokes and four-strokes for the 2006 regulations, but they refused.
The two-stroke will need to clean up, or it will effectively be killed by the 2006 regulations; who wants a bike that can only be raced. That will massively reduce the market value, and manufacturers will respond accordingly. I fear that I'll be hanging on to my '03 for a long time.
- Aug 2, 2000
- 13,510
- 19
you guys want some cheese to go with your two stroke whine?
XRpredator said:
As you said, technology must keep up - in this case with an emissions mandate (as opposed to, for example performance requirements) - or else it will be obsolesced in favor of equipment that does comply.
Part of the reason that the manufacturers pushed the boundaries and re-defined four-stroke performance was the presence of the two-strokes that they've had to compete against. Ultimately we all lose out as consumers if the two stroke disappears so hopefully R&D on clean-burn two-strokes will continue and eventually come to market fruition. Clearly, however that will not happen for 2006.
Besides which, two strokes are just plain more fun to ride unless you're old and out of shape. :nener:
this is all horse crap. the thumper should be allowed twice the displacement only if it is air cooled as per the origional rules that still linger today. actually according to the rules the ktm 250 thumper shouldnt have been allowed to race supercross this year and yes this is a one sided political agenda. just rember you can get a complete top end kit for your smoker for less than one valve for your high tech wonderful magic cheating take out a socond mortgage thumper.
XRpredator said:
The problem is that if the EPA had their wishes none of us would be riding...And it's that kind of attitude of ignorance that will find offroading completely illegal....By handing over a victory to them with 2 strokes it gets easier and easier to regulate until it's illegal to even ride.
When stuff like this happens it hurts motorcycling everywhere.
nephron said:
Don't get me wrong I like 4 strokes too....But since I'm not racing at the top of the professional level and it's not a life and death situation I can get by on a 2 stroke just fine and it's alot less costly and much easier to maintain.
What you're not seeing is that not only are they tightening the noose on motorcycling in general, but also limiting the choices of consumers and driving up cost to the point to where it's rediculous..... $7,000 for a dirt bike that'll be raced and probably dropped several times during its life? Sportbikes are roughly(600cc) $8,000.
I just sold a MINT, I'm talking MINT condition 1000cc 90 degree Vtwin sportbike that goes 0 to 60 in 3 seconds and a top speed of 170 mph (solid as a rock speed) that had a limited production for $6100. Made with the highest quality parts you can find too . Rear tires are $150 for that thing.
If the 2 stroke is completely gone you're gonna see the costs of your 4 strokes go up dramatically.
john3_16 said:
Sounds like I missed a good deal! I haven't figured out exactly what it was yet, but the price was sure good! Of course it was easier to ride fast than a 500 cc two-stroke roadracer, right? Interesting how a little doubling of displacement makes a bike "easy to ride," right?
Similar Topics
