Classes To Sustain The 2 Stroke

[duke]

Steve125's response serves as an excellent, well thought out straight forward assessment. Not to be one who follows conspiracy's, but his theory has credibility in that it appears that there is an orchestrated effort by various entities to either eradicate the sport and/or line their pockets even deeper by means of promoting a product that is costlier to purchase and maintain. Our only salvation, as I see it, is through a means of self governing where we demand local tracks to enforce stringent noise regulations. We also need to voice our discontent to the various sanctioning bodies, local and national, manufacturers, and offer viable, sensible and well thought out alternatives. Communication forums such as these have the power to initiate these efforts. I am quite sure the manufacturer's, both OEM and after market, monitor these forums as a means of tracking buying trends and customer opinions

 

[ellandoh]

apparently the mfgs. with all their money power greed etc. etc. are being blindsided by the instant gratification of the almighty dollar today selling four strokes. those sorry @#$@# dont realize its a big american trick to put them out of business as soon as their is 4t only were gonna ban all motocross bikes? i doubt it :coocoo:

id give them a little more credit than that, where will that end :yikes: . the american people probably wouldnt fall for that either, since if we give up that right it wont be far behind when all kinds of other rights are taken away from us :pissed:

one more thing: assuming an even r&d budget id like to see the profit margin differences on a 2t vs 4t my guess is its about even or better for the 2t ..........all the extra close tolerance parts not to mention the titanium and other precious metal parts the 4 stroke is probably a bargain

if you saturate the market with 2 strokes then the only people buying them need to replace them or youngsters, come out with the latest greatest 4 stroke and start saturating the market from square one with the next big thing .when that ride is over their will be something newer and "better" they learned this from bill gates ......when windows xp sales fall off the new windows longhorn will magically be ready to goto market the next day and no sooner :think:

every year they tease you with a little improvement here and there then(porting,better gripper seat,1.5lbs,tps,etc.) every 5 years they give you something sweet(rc valve,aluminum frame,rear disc,etc) then every 20 you get something major(shock linkage,inverted forks competitive 4stroke,etc). the sorry thing is they have a room full of people debating what when and how theyre gonna string you along for probably 15 years right now

 

[steve125]

one more thing: assuming an even r&d budget id like to see the profit margin differences on a 2t vs 4t my guess is its about even or better for the 2t ..........all the extra close tolerance parts not to mention the titanium and other precious metal parts the 4 stroke is probably a bargain

:

every now

Bike sales profit margins aren't the issue here. I agree they are probably close to the same 2 or 4 stroke. It's in the parts and accessories that the 4 stroke owner is getting boned. Like you said, all those close tolerance parts and precious metals. When they break or need servicing you pay 2x that of a 2 smoke. Not to mention the labor $ involved for those who are less skilled.

 

[ellandoh]

Bike sales profit margins aren't the issue here. I agree they are probably close to the same 2 or 4 stroke. It's in the parts and accessories that the 4 stroke owner is getting boned. Like you said, all those close tolerance parts and precious metals. When they break or need servicing you pay 2x that of a 2 smoke. Not to mention the labor $ involved for those who are less skilled.

i guess the moral of my post is not clear.........what it boils down to is "are the bike mfg. playing into the hands of the american supposaid banning of our recreation purposely or by stupidity?" i suspect neither i also suspect if all the mfgs felt threatened by our epa and loss of 95% of their american sales they would get together and make this all a NON-ISSUE. the rest of that :blah: just like this :blah: are surrounding viewpoints, there are alot of reasons mfgs are not in on and are probably dead set againt a conspiracy that floats around here of riding areas all to be closed........namely at least 1 reason for every bike sold in america

 

[Zenith]

I'm surprised you're not having more problems over there with noise right now tbh. In the UK a lot of tracks (maybe a majority now?) have noise tests before you're allowed ride. Even at that you hear of tracks being closed most weeks, on the basis of noise. The offical reason 2 strokes are being ushered out is because of emissions, but the average non-riding Joe Public doesn't know anything about emissions as it doesn't directly effect their lives. What does effect Joe's life is constant noise 7 days a week from dawn till dusk, and really loud noise on Sunday during racing. People who may not have even known they lived near an MX track or at least weren't bothered by it now have a - let's be honest - quite legitimate reason to be annoyed.
I live on the side of a forested mountain where you'd usually have 3-5 bikes on over the weekend. I can hear a 4 stroke no matter where it is on the mountain, and pretty damn clearly. All you hear of the 2 strokes is the odd baaarp sound, other then that they may as well not be up there for all I can hear of them.

I'm all for the sport evolving, but does it make sense that that evolution is causing it's demise?

 

[SpDyKen]

As soon as the two strokes are limited to one spark every two revolutions of the engine, I'll be happy to race a 250F against a 250 2T. Until then, the cc difference is necessary to create equality.

Spark rationing, so THATS what is at the bottom of this great 2-s vs. 4-s debate !!!!! I've always wondered .......
Personally, I like RIDING either one; they each have their unique advantages that I enjoy at various moments in a ride. I can and will ride quickly on either. Presently, my job keeps me pretty busy so I'm riding a YZ125 because I can spend more time RIDING and less time WORKING on it. I don't have any trouble keeping up with my 250/300/450 equipt buddies. It's not the bike, it's the rider, in my experience. That's what I like about bikes vs. cars!

 

[SpDyKen]

By the way, FYI, most 4-strokes do "spark" every engine revolution; it's often referred to as a "waste spark" as it does nothing at that 'overlap' portion of the stroke.

 

[DLHamblin]

While Yamaha has said it will continue 2-strokes up to 2010 (according to our local dealer); the writing may be on the wall. Our dealer is getting two (2) 2006 YZ-250 2-strokes this year.

Now for the good news, my name is on one!

 

[SpectraSVT]

With the majority of amateur races being on outdoor style tracks, people will most likely choose a 4 stroke in the future. Since most amatuer organizations don't have Supercross style tracks, I can't see the 2T staying very much longer. I do not want to see them go but the amateur scene and casual riders is where all the profits are being made and consumers are buying 4T's. If 4T really are better as the Nationals and pro riders keep saying then 2T's will be phased out eventually.

 

[ellandoh]

i decided i really love the 2stroke but if im forced to i would ride a 4stroke without a fight. now if the noise issue forces all bikes to be banned then im gonna be a career criminal and thats all i have to say about that :cool:

 

[i_955]

I can’t believe it, this thread actually brought a tear to my eye.
I’m almost 43yrs old and I just got back into dirt biking after “27yrs” off, doing school/marriage/career/children and I am truly at piece when I’m riding my 250YZ.
It is so dear to my heart that I can’t loose it again, I don’t think I could mentally handle not riding dirt.
I’m busy planning another ride with friends before our ride is over and if the boys can’t come, I’m organizing with others. I even pretend I’m riding in the ditch on my way to work, ya I’m obsessed.

I only know of 4 tracks in my area and TWO of them have closed this year DUE TO 4 STROKES NOISE LEVEL ISSUES.

I went to the CMA Outdoor Nations in Walton last year & I was literally in pain from the volume of noise from the 4 strokes. They were unbearable even with ear plugs in.

Back to the original post:
I’m estatic that some racing bodies are bringing 125 2 stroke only event back to the venue.
But, Oh wait,,,
It isn’t the 4 strokes that are the actual problem, it’s the owners that take the stock pipe off and install an obscenely loud, expensive pipe thinking it will make them a better/faster rider. I passed 2 of them all day using only the torque of my 2 stroke, these boys were S-L-O-W but grossly loud.
I was at the track last week, there were to chumps on little 50’s that were louder than all the 2 strokes (& probably 4 strokes put together). What kind of responsibility do these jack-offs pay into MY riding future?

After such a long absence from the sport I LOVE, I now find it being stolen away because some A-WIPE thinks he is faster because he is the loudest thing in the County.

Mind you, I’ve witnessed some piercing 2 strokes recently, it is up to all of us to keep it as quiet as possible.

Back to the original post:
The 125 class used to be an amazingly competitive class. The bikes had small motors and riders had to make things happen, on it all the time. Today’s 250F’s have lap times in the 250 class times. Where did the performance gap go?
I wish the answer was to limit the noise levels or air output of the 4t’s but that would only work at sanctioned events. 4T Buddy knowing he can gain HP by gutting his end can at a private practice track is going to at ANY COST (even at the risk of closing down my riding place) to look fast. Tomorrow all his 4T buddies are showing up with hacksaws, cutting their cans off thinking it is going to make them faster.

Sanctioned Events – as they should be.

125cc
Includes, up to 125cc.

250cc
Includes up to 250cc

Open
Ride what you bring…

Oh my,,, I’m so upset I’m going round & round in circles.

A 4T riding acquaintance of mine looks at me like I’m jerk when I try to tell him that the 6” hole in the side of his end-can makes his bike unnecessarily loud. It is so loud I can’t stand riding behind him but I’m the jerk.

 

[binthedirtnow]

Duke, if you are still tracking this thread, you are right..... The m/c sanctioning bodies only need to make accessable racing classes to help dictate what bikes are popular. What you are talking about Duke, the karting classes, is true. I know it is because I help establish the class structure they use today. It was back in '89 - early '90's that I was involved in the fledgling sport of 125cc gearbox sprint karts in So Cal. Now it is huge. We used to race primarily at only two tracks throughout the year: one in Riverside and one in Temecula. There were only a few shops making any decent karts, and I worked at one of them. Back then many peolple wanted to get involved, but did not want to race because it was an "open" class, and guys with no budget running stock and/or air-cooled motors had no chance of winning against racers with lots of money running high-hp rotory valve motors. So, we started calling meetings asking for participation to help create a new class - a "cadet" type class that had restrictions on engine types and modifications. Well, I had to get out of the sport because I was young and broke, but look what has happened since. Now they have "cadet" classes and even classes for 80cc and kids and spec classes. Now, shifter karts have their own clubs and hold their own events. Back when I was in it, we had to negotiate with the track operators to let us race at all ! So, Duke you are right. If there is a place for them, people will want to ride them and buy them, because they are still just as fun as ever, 125 dirtbikes that is.
B.

 

[rbaker]

If this is a totally EPA controlled issue.. then whats next..

When government starts taking away freedoms that smaller groups of people took part in its no big deal to the masses.. but it doesnt stop there.. sad part is it would take an outlaw of all off road vehicles to spark any real interest in opposition.

Now it was nice to read an idea presented here that if that was the case the manufacturers would not allow that however.. with the slow killing off of the 2 strokes and the increase in profits with 4s you can already see that the manufacturers see the profit possibilities of having a total 4 stroke world.

Go onto yamahas website and check out the new 06 MX models..
Something small but..
Protaper Bars come standard on the 4 strokes but the 2 strokes are still sporting the good ol renthal bars.

A much simpler issue is the celebration of yamahas 50th anniversary with the special yellow black and white colors.. however who celebrates the colors? Not the 2 strokes which originally carried the colors on its back but the newer 4 stroke..

Even with those 2 small things it just seems obvious that they are trying to give people more reasons to go for that 4 stroke over a 2. And I can picture it happening more as time goes on with 4 strokes dominating classes and getting more substancial updates year to year while the 2 stroke sits largly untouched.. we will see tho..

Final words..
I am not very up on the classes but if it were up to me i say make the 2 classes separate; 2 stroke classes and 4 stroke classes.. to each his own then..

and oh yeah.. i premix :cool:

annnnnnddd.. i bet there has been more pollution from people who smoke cigarettes and cigars then all 2 stroke mx bikes combined!!!

 

[DLHamblin]

Maintenance Costs...

I too am a 46 year old rider who had been away for 15 years (got back riding with my son when he got the bug, having a blast...).

I started him out on a TT-R125, and got me a TT-R250 to chase him with (which it does well...). He is ready to step up now to a YZ-85; so I was deciding what to get (YZF, WR, YZ).

The 4-strokes are great but what surprised me was the maintenance intervals and the costs associated with them if you follow them. I went back and talked with my friend (the head mechanic) to see what he thought.

He summed it up well by saying "the 4-strokes run real good, and when they blow up, they blow up real real good." He went on to say if you follow the maintainence schedule they are reliable but many don't and end up with expensive repairs.

That along with weight made me put my name on the YZ-250 2-stroke. I guess when the last year comes out in a few years I should by one in a box and put it in my garage for later. :(

 

[showtime586]

yep, ama schoolboy classes are strictly 125cc two-stroke now.

It was my understanding that this was an MX Sports (Loretta Lynn) class change only, and it wouldn't apply to local AMA racing.

 

[LA Sledboy]

Boy this is a hot topic. Not only in the dirtbike world but all OHV worlds. First off let me mention that there are groups like the BRC, Saws, Local Snowmobile of OHV assosciations etc. that you can join to help fight the good fight and keep our riding areas open.

Now change of subject. Whats the deal with all you guys talking about the high maintenance of the 4 strokes in the dirtbike world. I know nothign really about them (in the dirtbike arena) but in my experience (sled world) they are the worry free STRONG engines. Yamaha is doing some great things in the 4 stroke world there and it doesnt take twice the displacement. The new Yamaha Apex is a sled w/ a R1 based 995cc 4 smoke with around 130-35hp. Equivalent 800-900cc two strokes put out about the same hp maybe a little more. These are your Ski-Doo, Polaris, and Arctic Cat sleds. I personally have a 800cc Doo which is bored, ported, new head -more compression, more timing, and runs about 165hp. I also have a 60hp shot of nitrous on the way.

NOW my point is my engine is tuned and tuned finely. Others have 2 strokes that go up to 1000cc and even much further (mod engines). You are ALWAYS scared of that seizure or rod going or just something grenading in there with the 2 strokes. Now if you take that Yamha Apex and put a turbocharger on it with say 17lbs of boost you have a machine that will run about 300hp (honestly) at altitude and do this for thousands of miles with you just changing the oil. The most many guys do is change over to lower compression pistons or change a gasket for compression. The stock rods and crank are PLENTY strong for this type of power. A 2 stroke pumping out 300hp.... hahahaha (I dont laugh because I dont like them, I love them) its good for a few pulls up the mtn in your lucky.

One more point which I dont understand in the 2 stroke dirtbike world. How are you not meeting emissions requirements. While Yamahas 4 stroke sleds definitely meet them, SkiDoo has its entire 2 stroke lineup exceeding EPA requirements so there is no need for them to be changing over to 4 strokes, except for the ever increasing demand for that insane reliable horsepower.

Oh also one more thing. A 4 stroke doesnt have to be loud to make power. Its guys that throw pipes on there that are pretty much just a straight pipe. As you know 4 strokes dont rely nearly as much on the backpressure of a scavenging chamber like a 2 stroke does so you can almost just remove the muffler and ride it which is sort of what these guys are doing. These massive 300hp turbo'd sleds you can barely tell they are on they are so quiet, and when they take off its a beautiful sound especially when the blowoff valves spit open.

 

[DLHamblin]

Whats the deal with all you guys talking about the high maintenance of the 4 strokes in the dirtbike world. I know nothign really about them (in the dirtbike arena) but in my experience (sled world) they are the worry free STRONG engines.

On some of the 250 cc 4-strokes top end maintenance is required (recommended) at 15-20 hours. On the 450 cc 4- strokes you can go around 35 hours. If you end up replacing valves etc it can be costly.

According to our dealers mechanics they are reliable if you check them; but many don't and the result can be some serious (expensive) rebuilds.

I think it was Dirt Rider (but could be wrong...) a couple months ago had a series on the 4-stroke top ends. They pointed out the strengths and weakness of the various brands motors.

 

[pace]

Well... you're comparing a relatively heavy 1000cc 4 cylinder platform to single cylinder 250cc motors that rev close to 14,000rpms and which utilize extremely lightweight internals and limited oil capacity to achieve the single-minded goal of a high power/weight ratio. Consider also that these motorcycles were primarily designed for closed course racing, where 'get me to the end of this moto' might be important but 'get me home at the end of the day' was likely never a design consideration. They are also operating in an especially harsh (dirty) environment, particularly when compared with sleds I should think. It's ultimately an apples-oranges comparison.

Forced induction, nitrous, and even increased engine capacity are options that are not feasible for dirtbike manufacturers and not practical for a large portion of riders who have to comply with racing regulations. Forced induction is impractical for dirtbikes for a number of other reasons too.. :yikes: So the options to make more crank horsepower are to rev higher, increase volumetric efficiency, or reduce the parasitic effect of engine internals - all while keeping the weight of the machine to an absolute minimum. Those approaches are generally not conducive to durability, longevity, and low noise - dirtbike motors are no different than any other internal combustion engines in that regard. So we pay the price with short service intervals.

Regarding two-stroke emissions; I'm under the impression that this is achieved on sleds through use of fuel injection and/or ancilliary emissions equipment? I think that weight and complexity are what have prevented the dirtbike market from embracing emissions reducing equipment, although there are several companies reported to be investigating its viability.