D-14 Enduro Rules Changes

[fatherandson]

Two NEW suggestions

I like the rule that the worker points must be approved before April 1st. I think the rule needs to be modified to state that the rider must put in 20 hours of work to get first place points. Showing up on Saturday night and working on race day is not fair to those who give up a month of weekends to put on an event.
I think there should be a benefit to winning a Hi point award. At this time, if you take a hi point and the rider that you beat moves to first place there is a four point advantage. If you did not take the hi point award, and take first place points. The guy in second is still only four points behind you. If we changed the first place points to 25, a Hi point benefit would be provided.
Just a couple more things to talk about....

 

[Fred T]

Good thought Mike

I know we talked about this for next year. I like the 20 hours (1 full weekend) for worker points so that there is something added to the clubs workload and at least if a guy gets the points the event club benifits more from their participation. Getting first place points for sweep riding 10 miles just don't seem fair.


I think we should establish a "fallen rider" points rule too so that riders make good choices to help others when injured. It's a tough call when some one sees a guy down and knows they are chasing series points and having a good day, if they stop their day has ended for the most part. If you knew that you would get your average score for example if you don't finish the race to assist a seriously injured rider then it may encourage people to help reduce serious injurys by helping getting guys the help they need. At least something to kick around anyway. The down side is if you stop and the guy gets up in a short while and rides on then you are screwed, you may have to kick them to make sure they are hurt. :laugh: . I don't know though if we complicate things too much with too manyrules for everything we will screw up the series like the lawyers have screwed up our country. :p

 

[INCA]

The Riding Number Situation

Current Rule 12 – “All riders (except AA riders) will be given their choice of riders numbers. All AA riders start at row #21 through #35. The Grand Champion from the previous year will start on #21, second overall from the previous year on #22, and so on with 12th overall from the previous year on #32. One number must also be left available through row #35 for riders who wish to ride the AA class on their own. A maximum of four riders may start per minute”.

Proposal A – To replace current Rule 12
Starting positions, except for the AA class, must be determined by random drawing. All AA riders will start on rows #21 through #35. The Grand Champion from the previous year will start on row #21, second overall from the previous year on row #22, and so on with 12th overall from the previous year on row #32. One number must also be left available through row #35 for riders who wish to ride the AA class on their own.
When there is a paid pre entry system, a rider should be given the choice of requesting 3 rows in order of preference. For riders to be on the same row, their paid pre entries must be sent in together. Those that draw numbers at signup and want to ride together will either all sign up together or the first one will pay the entry fee for the whole group.
The promoting organization should not be faulted for having to add more riding numbers after registration has started when the number of anticipated entries is exceeded.


Post other ideas, corrections or what have you and I will fine tune accordingly. Changes and/or corrections for Rules 1, 5, 21 & 22 coming up next.

Young Ted

 

[INCA]

Rule 1 Classes Change

Current Rule 1 – Recognized classes are Class C by age up to 29 and 30 and over, AA and Women’s, Class A, 86-200, 201-250, 251 & up; Veteran (30+), Senior (40+) and 4 stroke. Class B; 0-200, 201-250, 251 & up, Veteran, Senior & 4 stroke. Super Senior (50-59) & Master (60+).

Proposal A

Recognized classes will be as follows. AA, Women and Master (60 years of age & up), Class A; 89-200cc, 201-250cc, 251cc & up,Veteran (30 YOA & up), Senior (40 YOA & up), Super Senior (50 YOA & up), Class B; 0-200cc, 201-250cc, 251cc & up, Veteran (30 YOA & up), Senior (40 YOA & up), Super Senior (50 YOA & up), Class C; Jr. (29 YOA & under), Sr. (30 YOA & over).

Young Ted

 

[INCA]

Rule 5 - Top Riders

Current Rule 5. AA,A,B,C Hi-Point riders shall be determined on an overall basis. The top 12 riders from the previous year plus all National AA riders will be considered as Enduro AA within D14. The top riders from the classes will be awarded points on the basis of Rule 5 starting with 1st place.

Proposal A

AA,A,B,C Hi-Point riders shall be determined on an overall basis. The top 12 AA/A riders from the previous year plus all National AA riders will be considered as Enduro AA within D14. The top riders from the classes will be awarded points on the basis of Rule 4 starting with 1st place.

(This is only a typo correction of Rule 5 to Rule 4 and a clarification of the top 12 riders.)

Young Ted

 

[fatherandson]

There was a proposed change to this rule (#5) last year to reduce the number of AA riders. Many of our event are dual district and the AA class can get rather large. The proposal was defeated after some good discussion with current and past AA riders who attended the meeting.
The typo does need to get corrected.

 

[bbarel]

Current Rule 5. AA,A,B,C Hi-Point riders shall be determined on an overall basis. The top 12 riders from the previous year plus all National AA riders will be considered as Enduro AA within D14. The top riders from the classes will be awarded points on the basis of Rule 5 starting with 1st place.

So then can a B rider jump right to AA if he is in the top 12 or should this read "The top 12 A/AA riders from previous year..."?

Not that I would have that 'problem', but I know somebody who does...

 

[Wolverine423]

So then can a B rider jump right to AA if he is in the top 12 or should this read "The top 12 A/AA riders from previous year..."?

Not that I would have that 'problem', but I know somebody who does...

 

[fatherandson]

Bret, we may need some clarification. In most races there is A/AA section and a comparison of scores is not possible with the B riders.

 

[salgeek]

two rules in d14 I think should change.

1) row selection should be strictly by lottery for everyone except AA's. I really liked the lottery at JPine (cause it felt fair).

2) worker points should be the average of one's seasons finishes...

no doubt this will be popular :)

 

[Fred T]

two rules in d14 I think should change.

1) row selection should be strictly by lottery for everyone except AA's. I really liked the lottery at JPine (cause it felt fair).

2) worker points should be the average of one's seasons finishes...

no doubt this will be popular :)

I do not agree with either of these. JMHO. Have you ever put on an Enduro Scott?

 

[salgeek]

Have you ever put on an Enduro Scott?

Didn't know this was a prereq to voicing my opinion/suggestion - Fred.

 

[Fred T]

Didn't know this was a prereq to voicing my opinion/suggestion - Fred.

Scott, if you are going to state your opinion then get thicker skin and prepare to hear if some one disagrees with you. I disagree with you because putting on an Enduro is a hell of a lot of work and requires a lot of help. Do the math. 4 check teams used twice is 20 people. You need another 20 people to man road crossings, pre ride, sweep ride, get riders and bikes out of the woods that are hurt or DNF's on event day. So you need at least 40-60- people working on event day. Then there is layout which takes several weeks, arrowing, mileaging, check placement planning. You have sign up people, etc and on an on. Then when it;'s all over you have to go back into the woods and take all the arrows down. There is insurance to buy, porta johns to rent, trophys to order, etc. Any help a club gets is truly appreciated and it also helps for riders to clearly understand what it takes to put one of these on so at least they can understand when it ain't perfect . The first place points were enacted to encourage riders to take a race off and help a club put the race on by making it worth it for them not to race. So if you have ever put on an enduro you would understand this concept and the reasons behind the first place points. It makes sense to me!! As far at the row stuff I do not wish to discuss that beat to death horse any more. You are entitled to your opinion and I am rentitled to politly disagree with you. We live in America! This is why I asked if you ever put an event on.

 

[salgeek]

Fred - I'm sure you have done more for the sport than I.

It's fine with me if you disagree with my suggestion/opinion. Perhaps, your suggestions should carry more weight because you have put on an enduro.

I was prepared for the fact my suggestions/opinion would not be popular I just didn't anticipate it would be discounted because I had never put on an enduro.

As for getting a thicker skin - some days I got it other days I don't.

Be sure - I'd still chase you down to let you know you punctured a rad.

 

[Fred T]

Fred - I'm sure you have done more for the sport than I. .

NO Scott, you missed the point.

Be sure - I'd still chase you down to let you know you punctured a rad.

And at trailfest I'll happily cook your food like I have every year! Even if you are still mad at me. :cool:

 

[70 marlin]

Wow! Mike & Fred I never knew it took so much work and man power :whoa: I've been un-worthy! LMC deservers better of me for the many great traifest that I've attended. If you would accept my help I'll be back next year. For what ever you need of me. With in reason :ohmy: (hopefully the berg will be street legal by the end of the month.)

 

[Fred T]

Scott
Let me apologise for flying off the handle and I'll be more civil, the worker points thing just struck a nerve. Anyway, please tell us what supports your opinion that an average score for worker points is the better way to go. That rule was used in the past BTW.
Thanks
Fred

 

[Smit-Dog]

Here are my opinions, FWIW...

Row Lottery
Pros
1) Forces you to ride on a row you wouldn't ordinarily try / consider.

2) Makes it more exciting plucking your row out of a can.

3) You're riding an enduro with event trail and minimal whoops - there are no bad rows in an enduro!

Cons
1) Harder to ride with 2+ buddies on the same row. The earlier you pick, the more likely you'll have a row with 2+ open spots for your buddies.

2) No pre-registration.

Misc
1) Riding a late row didn't appear to hold-up Cody Fastndang. Imagined that he had to get around a hell of a lot of riders in the tight stuff, but he also had a pretty burned-in trail to follow. At the end of the day, the faster / more skilled rider will prevail over their competition, regardless of row. It's an enduro, and you deal with the conditions.

2) I like being able to pre-register, and wish all events offered this.

3) Given a lottery for all events, it'd pretty much even itself out over the course of the season, and would be fair for all riders... assuming it's implemented fairly / consistently.

Worker Points
The guys that works multiple weekends and dozens of hours preparing for an enduro deserves more than 1st place points, and the guys that only works the day of the event certainly hasn't earned or justified their 1st place points. Myself included.

I thought that the average worker points rule was fair, but evidently clubs needed more help so instituted the 1st place point rule. My commitment, willingness, or ability to help had nothing to do with getting any points whatsoever. It's 3 kids, a social wife, and a 50+ hour a week job that prevents anything other than getting in the woods a couple times a month. But that's the rule, however inequitable it may be. Let's fix it and make it right.

Assuming that we need to keep the worker points rule in place to begin with (wouldn't it be great if we didn't!), one idea I had was to assign points based on the hours invested in an event.... with a cap. Chew on this:

- 1 point for every hour worked
- Maximum of 1st place points

For example: I worked a check and rode 40 miles of sweep. 6 hours of actual work = 6 points. Glad to help however I could, and so it becomes my dropped event.

This would result in some more work on the points keeper in determining how many hours a worker had invested, but the rule would recognize points equitably.

In order of preference, I vote:

1) One point for one hour worked, max of 1st place points.
2) Average points assigned.
3) Must work minimum of 26 hours (or x hours, i.e. some fair amount like 20+) to get worker / 1st place points.

Fallen Rider Rule
I wouldn't support a rule that assigns points for helping out a fallen rider. We should do it regardless, each circumstance is different, and I think it should be up to the Enduro Chairman, Event Promoter, and Referee to decide this if the situation warrants. Perhaps a rule could be put in place that allows for this, but is up to the discretion of the 3 parties mentioned above.

Fred - I think you should ride Jack Pine next year... you've earned it, and I think could use the break!

:cool:

 

[fatherandson]

I do not agree with the lottery system, but if we do change the rule, a pre entry option should be available.
The worker points was changed for two reasons....the clubs need more help (from people who can put in at least 20 hours - a full weekend before the event and event weekend). The other reason was that the last event is scheduled for ONE week before the banquet. Anyone who worked an event during the year would require their worker points average to be recalculated after the last event and before the banquet. I think it should stay at 26 points....other districts pay 30 or 35 points for working an event. JMHOs!!!

 

[Smit-Dog]

The rule should then stipulate a minimum number of hours worked to get worker points.

 

[TCTrailrider]

I think the worker points are a good thing if used selectively, based on time spent. The day of the event you need lots of bodies. Most of the jobs only involve a fiew hours. To pre ride a section, work a check or road crossing and sweep out is only a 4 hour process. First place points for that would be a bit much. Fred suggested a weekend commitment to get points, seems fair to me. The grunt work of layout, arrowing and de-arrowing needs consideration. I have helped do this for two events and will offer my help in the future, points or not. Enjoy working with friends and putting something into the sport. The enjoyment ends there, the work is miserable. Stapling arrows every 10' from the seat of your bike on a hot day just plain sucks. Tear down is worse, the event is over, nothing to look forward to, your just cleaning up the mess. Most of the worker points are going to those who have 30-50 hours into an event. The key players have more that that.

 

[INCA]

Mike - Reference your post #31 on 7/26. The way I read the last sentence, it refers to the points listed in Rule 4, which is why I believe it is a typo. The 16th place rider is not a top rider and gets no points. Should the last sentence be reconstructed?

I'll work on points brought up and have proposals B and so on, for the other rules, as time permits.

Young Ted

 

[fatherandson]

Ted, the typo I was referring to in # 31 was rule 5 versus 4...minor change. We may also want to clarify that it is the top 12 A/AA riders who will the AA class for the next year.

 

[INCA]

Rule 21 Enduros In Series

Current Rule 21.
Any D14 chartered club may apply for a series Enduro sanction. Applications will be considered by the Enduro Chairman. Number of events to be counted for end of season standings will be as follows:
Total # of Events Number of Races counted
1 to 5 All
6 5
7 6
8 6
9 7
10 8
More than 10 Drop 3


Ties of series will be broken by the AMA Rule 3, Section B.

Proposal A
Any D14 chartered club may apply for a series Enduro sanction. Applications will be considered by the Enduro Chairman. Number of events to be counted for end of season standings will be as follows:
Total # of events Number of Events counted
1 to 5 All
6 5
7 6
8 6
9 7
10 8
More than 10 Drop 3
Ties in the series will be broken under AMA National Enduro Series Supplemental Rules, National Points #3.

Rule #5 (page 3) has been edited as suggested.

Anyone that cares to write another proposal can send it to me at - incaktm@yahoo.com - and I will add it to the rule and keep things together. I'm working on #22 - work points - and will have it up next week.

Young Ted

PS - I'm not able to get the numbers to come out in columns. The two numbers should be seperated.

 

[salgeek]

Scott
Let me apologise for flying off the handle and I'll be more civil, the worker points thing just struck a nerve. Anyway, please tell us what supports your opinion that an average score for worker points is the better way to go. That rule was used in the past BTW.
Thanks
Fred

Fred - you ride and as a result you get a couple hundred "benefit of the doubt"(s) just like the one's you threw my way - thanks. Please understand - for me motorcycling is a fraternity, that I'm very proud to be a part of. I'm just thankful we can exchange our opinions and remain comrades. I don't really feel like you flew off the handle. Here is where I'm coming from - my career requires me to be flexible :blah:, as such I can't commit to anything such as working an enduro prior to April 1st. In fact it is difficult for me to predict my schedule - work wise more than a couple weeks out. I can and do live with that, but I don't think that should put me at a disadvantage when it comes to chasing the three top spots in my class. On the other hand, I support that people should be rewarded for working an enduro in a major way. Maybe the rule can be relaxed so someone can submit to work closer to the date of the enduro they think they can help at?

Truth be told I am not at ALL willing to loose a friend to make the top three in my class and will leave it at that. As a wise man pointed out... his service to the enduro community had nothing to do accumulating points whatsoever, now I understand why you said I missed the point. Whatever is decided for the 2007 series I will support.

Peace - Fred, and good luck at Harrison. Us d-14 guys need to take it up a notch.
Scott