D14 Sanctioning Meeting for 2008
- Thread starter Smit-Dog
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Wolverine423
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No advantage had, it just evens out the playing field with other distr AA riders whom don't have assigned numbers. Works just fine for distr. 15 16 17. I don't see why it wouldn't work for distr.14bbarel said:
Can we have a "No Rules" Enduro?
I too think it's redundant to legislate arrowing and obstacle marking. I think the AMA rules spell out adequately what should be expected. Have the arrowers read it! If trails and/or obstacles are marked poorly, I can tell you that the event promoter will hear about it. If events consistently mark their courses poorly, riders will not attend those events -- this I can tell you from experience! Let the market dictate what is proper, legislating it is NOT the answer.
As far as the AA rows, who cares? Fast guys are fast guys no matter where they start. The problem really lies in that at some events its an advantage to have an early minute, and at others it's an advantage to have a late minute. Not sure how to "correct" that, in IMO it's usually due to a club's "arrowing reputation" that brings that about.
Workers points - MUST be a part of the series. They need to be generous enough to encourage working BUT NOT mandate it! I like the current arrangement, except I think the club should be able to submit their list of workers after the event along with the results. The April deadline is difficult as peoples schedules, etc change during the year. Kinda hard to know exactly who's doing what 2 to 6 months in advance.
Sandbagger rule - jeez, there's a ton of this going on, some just more obvious than others. If a silly trophy is THAT important to stroke somebody's ego, let 'em have it. Also IMO, but if you've earned the points to be an A Rider, you should be proud of it -- and ride the class! I know I will, if I can find a class to win in! ;)
I too think it's redundant to legislate arrowing and obstacle marking. I think the AMA rules spell out adequately what should be expected. Have the arrowers read it! If trails and/or obstacles are marked poorly, I can tell you that the event promoter will hear about it. If events consistently mark their courses poorly, riders will not attend those events -- this I can tell you from experience! Let the market dictate what is proper, legislating it is NOT the answer.
As far as the AA rows, who cares? Fast guys are fast guys no matter where they start. The problem really lies in that at some events its an advantage to have an early minute, and at others it's an advantage to have a late minute. Not sure how to "correct" that, in IMO it's usually due to a club's "arrowing reputation" that brings that about.
Workers points - MUST be a part of the series. They need to be generous enough to encourage working BUT NOT mandate it! I like the current arrangement, except I think the club should be able to submit their list of workers after the event along with the results. The April deadline is difficult as peoples schedules, etc change during the year. Kinda hard to know exactly who's doing what 2 to 6 months in advance.
Sandbagger rule - jeez, there's a ton of this going on, some just more obvious than others. If a silly trophy is THAT important to stroke somebody's ego, let 'em have it. Also IMO, but if you've earned the points to be an A Rider, you should be proud of it -- and ride the class! I know I will, if I can find a class to win in! ;)
Wolverine423
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UP Magoo said:
No shat! End of story! Good post Magoo.
Wolverine423
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Absolutely without a doubt the best post in this thread!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you YT!INCA said:
WAAAAAY too much drama in district 14. I guess its just easier to make a rule to add to a rule…I guess that goes hand in hand with our ‘Easies” nowadays….. :ride:
- Oct 28, 2001
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It's not just in the off-season! These have been compiled throughout the year from rider discussions, suggestions, and direct requests.fatherandson said:
Agreed! I often wonder if it's a mistake to solicit ANY opinions or suggestions on internet discussion forums. The opinions represent only 5-10% of riders, and all it seems to reveal is that it sure doesn't take much to get everyone's panties in a bunch!
Agreed. Not having the Womens class may discourage some from trying an event.
Your's was the only proposal submitted that I didn't have to write myself.... Thank you!
I don't think that we can or should specify a rule that dictates the scoring software a promoter must use. I also don't think any rule should be so specific as to identify by brand name a product that must be used. Software changes over time; we'd have to change the rule anytime the software changed. Rules should specify and require certain processes, procedures, formats, etc., but that's it. Leave the implementation up to the promoter.
With that said, however (!), I strongly recommend and support the clause regarding required format for event results. I have worked very hard at getting MotoTally adopted this past season, and came very close to having all 18 events (AMA+FES) use the system (only 1 did not) in the first year. That in itself exceeded my own expectations. I suspect that due to the efforts and results from this past season, all clubs will use MotoTally in '08. If for some reason or circumstance (and there are a few) an event does not use MotoTally, I want and need that clause in effect. The vast majority of promoters today can and do provide results in electronic format, with or without MotoTally. I just want to spell out in detail what I need to make it integrate (without several hours of extra work) with the results and points system we now have in place. If that clause is not put into effect, I will need to seriously reconsider my approach for next season.
While the concept of having every single D14 enduro rider volunteer to help work an event is awesome, the reality is that it's not practical for many obvious reasons. If anything at all good comes out of this rule proposal, it's the continued discussions that raise awareness among riders. I know over on KTMTalk that bitching about lack of event volunteers has cause at least one rider to take action and volunteer to help next year.
On the other hand, I see validity in adding the clause about working event trail, and then racing that event for points. Seems like an obvious conflict of interest, and "common sense". In my mind this is "broke", and does need to be fixed.
Disagree. Other districts do not award points unless a rider makes it to the first check (and that's how MotoTally is programed - because every district / circuit using it also does it that way). And hey, that's racing! ...To borrow from some other reasoning.... We all know the risks going into an event, and this is one of them. Enduros are a test of rider (conditioning / skill) and bike (proper prep / maintenance) endurance.
I believe we do need this as a written rule so that it's completely clear and well-known to all riders. How can anyone justify enforcing it if there's nothing to support it?
Our rule book is "lightweight" compared the the majority of district rule books out there! Why would you think it unnecessary for the district to solve this issue? Just accept it? In a sport that is based on fair and equitable competition??? The AMA doesn't currently have an adequate solution in place.... It is a district issue, and we as a district need to address it - just as so many other districts already have.
I agree. If this does nothing more than raise awareness of the issue, then good. I've found that there are big differences among events in how well the trail is arrowed, hazards clearly marked, etc. One factor is that it's not always the same group from year-to-year that marks trail..... Marking "standards" vary event to event and year to year. It'd be nice if the guidelines were occasional reviewed by some of the newer crew members working an event.
Then you must be really outraged by the 91 pages of the AMA rule book!!!!Fred T said:
Agreed.... We just need some rules in place for times when the common sense is not so common.YT said:
Do you know what's funny, yet at the same time disappointingly ironic... We have quite a few rules in our rule book today that are completely redundant with existing AMA rules, and I would bet that if 1/2 of our existing rules were proposed today, would not stand a chance in hell of passing!
:cool:
... as I understand it currently, you either work the event or ride the event. You can't do both. If we need a rule clarification, then so be it. We tell club members who wish to ride our event that they cannot ride the event area during the two weeks preceeding the enduro.
I look forward to hearing what the rule changes will be for 2008 -- I know there will be some spirited debate! In the end, I know everyone wnts whats best for the District and its riders... Thanks for the work you all put in on our behalf!
Like I said, we need those hosting (and arrowing) the events to actually READ the AMA rules. The AMA Rulebook governs our events, and our D-14 Rulebook is intended to provide supplemental rules unique to our District. The rulebooks should complement each other, not restate what is already there. I think we need to ensure that the event promoters are aware of that fact! Regurgitating rules that should already be adhered to just complicates things, IMO.Smit-Dog said:
I look forward to hearing what the rule changes will be for 2008 -- I know there will be some spirited debate! In the end, I know everyone wnts whats best for the District and its riders... Thanks for the work you all put in on our behalf!
UP Magoo said:
I could care less about a trophy; but, I care alot about how I place in relation to other "B" riders. Riders who truly are "B" riders. Is it that much to ask that the district least make some effort to keep sandbaggers in check? As you say there is a ton of sandbagging going on - does it have to be that way? If a rule is not a partial answer to this problem what is? The AMA has nothing in place. Is fairness in competition is a worthwhile goal for D14?
Wolverine423 said:
sad.
For two years I have lived with an "A" rider riding in the B-Senior class; but, this year took the cake when I missed a first place class win at the Harrison National at the hands of a sandbagging A rider.
I was truly hopeful that I could introduce my son to fair competition in D14 enduros. Now I'm not so sure this is possible.
Should I teach him how to cheat to win in D14? It was plain as day to him that 2006 FES class winer, T. Woodward didn't have a clock, odometer or route sheet on her bike.
We have dropped $95+ in sign up fees at every FES/Enduro event for the past two seasons.
I sure as hell thought that fairness in competition was implied in that contract.
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Wolverine423
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The aspect of competition is never going to be pure or perfect. Not in any sport on the planet from Nascar to Ping Pong. I was taught that when life gets tough on ya you got to toughing up and move ahead as the toys stay in the damn sand box. Now you can take that for what it’s worth and twist it all around as you see fit but that’s the bottom line. Life- Death - Sports and Competition is never going to be fair – That’s why I posted “No shat! End of story! Good post Magoo”.Tired of seeing that horse beat to death just like others. Now you have already turn in you’re AMA card and bad mouthed our district 14 and our district 14 chairman and anyone else that challenges your actions or beliefs as well as resorting to throwing the names out on websites that you feel cheated by. I can’t believe your now calling a little girl and her family a bunch of cheaters on this website…. Now that’s sad! What’s left?....If you’re that damn disgusted with everything & everybody why don’t you follow your actions and just move on instead of pulling shat like this on these websites. To have an opinion and debate it is one thing but labeling little girls & 50 yrs men on websites is another! I have a good feeling that you’re going to find what you’re looking for.salgeek said:
Good luck - I think you’re goona need it.
DW
- Oct 28, 2001
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- Thread starter
- #39
Thanks to all who took the time to contribute rule proposals, offer constructive suggestions, ideas, and voice opinions to help improve the sport for all involved.
Final version posted that will be reviewed at the meeting:
http://www.d14enduro.org/rule_proposals/2008/2008_d14_enduro_rule_proposals.pdf
Final version posted that will be reviewed at the meeting:
http://www.d14enduro.org/rule_proposals/2008/2008_d14_enduro_rule_proposals.pdf
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An Open Note To Scott Allen
Dear Scott,
If I am of base here and get tagged out, no hard feelings on my part as I've been there before. I've been through a parallel to your situation - didn't get first place for the season because of lies and shenanigans by the chairman - so I'm well aware of how much it hurts. I then came very close to not riding enduros any more. You have gone beyond me by resigning your AMA membership. That you have such strong convictions is a positive in my book and you have my respect in that regard. What I do not understand, and would like to know your answer, (by PM or otherwise), why are you still commenting or participating in things involving enduros?
Sincerely yours,
Ted del Solar
Dear Scott,
If I am of base here and get tagged out, no hard feelings on my part as I've been there before. I've been through a parallel to your situation - didn't get first place for the season because of lies and shenanigans by the chairman - so I'm well aware of how much it hurts. I then came very close to not riding enduros any more. You have gone beyond me by resigning your AMA membership. That you have such strong convictions is a positive in my book and you have my respect in that regard. What I do not understand, and would like to know your answer, (by PM or otherwise), why are you still commenting or participating in things involving enduros?
Sincerely yours,
Ted del Solar
The Sanctioning meeting is over. I would like to thank all that showed up.
Special thanks goes to Bill Smith for keeping me fresh and handling all the rule change proposals. Also a big thanks to your rider rep Craig Scott for taking the minutes and keeping the meeting rolling.
Acouple of changes came out of all this.
#1 AA class will no longer be assigned numbers,but will have the rows 21-40 left with 1 number open for a AA rider.
#2 A rider must must be scored to at least the first check after the start at an event to recieve points in the District
2b, You must have your D14 membership on the date of an event to recieve points.
#3 Electronic scoring must be submitted from the club to our points keeper with specfic data included.
Sandbagger rule proposal and The rewording of working an event were not included in the new rules , but We all agreedthat they will be given due dilligence in our district to try to remain fair,by using common sense.
We will have 9 events this coming season and will count 2 drops.( Possible 10, qs Buzzard M/C has blocked offa date but has not committed to an event to date. This would if run give us 3 drops).
I will still be your chairman and will contnue to try and build both our marketing and interfracture of the enduro series to make a good series for all.
Even after some problems this last season and some questionable (from some) rulings, I believe we are still one of the primemier Enduro series in the AMA.
Thomas Dunn
AMA D14 Enduro Chair.
Special thanks goes to Bill Smith for keeping me fresh and handling all the rule change proposals. Also a big thanks to your rider rep Craig Scott for taking the minutes and keeping the meeting rolling.
Acouple of changes came out of all this.
#1 AA class will no longer be assigned numbers,but will have the rows 21-40 left with 1 number open for a AA rider.
#2 A rider must must be scored to at least the first check after the start at an event to recieve points in the District
2b, You must have your D14 membership on the date of an event to recieve points.
#3 Electronic scoring must be submitted from the club to our points keeper with specfic data included.
Sandbagger rule proposal and The rewording of working an event were not included in the new rules , but We all agreedthat they will be given due dilligence in our district to try to remain fair,by using common sense.
We will have 9 events this coming season and will count 2 drops.( Possible 10, qs Buzzard M/C has blocked offa date but has not committed to an event to date. This would if run give us 3 drops).
I will still be your chairman and will contnue to try and build both our marketing and interfracture of the enduro series to make a good series for all.
Even after some problems this last season and some questionable (from some) rulings, I believe we are still one of the primemier Enduro series in the AMA.
Thomas Dunn
AMA D14 Enduro Chair.
- Oct 28, 2001
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- Thread starter
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I thought it was a good meeting ... Whether any particular rule proposal passed or not, regardless it was healthy discussion that can only serve to help improve our series.
I would encourage everyone to attend a sanctioning meeting. It is only a couple of hours of your time once a year, and the outcome directly impacts your sport. You also gain valuable insight and a deeper appreciation for the amount of time and effort behind the scenes that goes into making this series happen. If it wasn't for the constant, year-round efforts of our enduro chairman TDunn and the clubs, we'd be left riding ORV trail or motos. As was stated, we have one of the premier enduro series in the AMA, and as riders we're fortunate to have Thomas and quality enduro clubs here in D14.
Craig Scott as the new Rider Rep stepped up and did a fine job to ensure that the voice of the rider was represented. Take the time to talk to Craig at the events - He has some good ideas to share, and is anxious to hear yours as well.
I'd also like to recognize the Southworth's - Brian and Clint, for Treasurer duties. More behind the scenes effort that for the most part goes unnoticed by riders... Which I guess is a good sign that they're doing a great job! Responsible financial planning by our leadership may allow us to purchase some much-needed scoring hardware for the '08 season.
The club representatives in attendance were LMC, Buzzards, Stump Jumpers, and Bent Wheels. The first 3 had voting power, and Bent Wheels was there because they have a renewed interest in getting back into promoting enduro events. They run trials events on their property, and have plans to help expand the Endurocross series here in Michigan.
More info...
2008 Rule Changes
-> http://www.d14enduro.org/rule_proposals/2008/2008_d14_enduro_rule_changes.pdf
To help identify and highlight what's been changed to the existing rules (refer to document link above):
1A- Competition Classes: Set minimum age limit for C-Junior.
1B - Row Assignments: First paragraph new / changed.
1C - Event Forms / Results: Second paragraph new.
1D - Events Counted In Series / Breaking Ties: Fixed typo in number of drops; clarified tie breaking rules.
:cool:
I would encourage everyone to attend a sanctioning meeting. It is only a couple of hours of your time once a year, and the outcome directly impacts your sport. You also gain valuable insight and a deeper appreciation for the amount of time and effort behind the scenes that goes into making this series happen. If it wasn't for the constant, year-round efforts of our enduro chairman TDunn and the clubs, we'd be left riding ORV trail or motos. As was stated, we have one of the premier enduro series in the AMA, and as riders we're fortunate to have Thomas and quality enduro clubs here in D14.
Craig Scott as the new Rider Rep stepped up and did a fine job to ensure that the voice of the rider was represented. Take the time to talk to Craig at the events - He has some good ideas to share, and is anxious to hear yours as well.
I'd also like to recognize the Southworth's - Brian and Clint, for Treasurer duties. More behind the scenes effort that for the most part goes unnoticed by riders... Which I guess is a good sign that they're doing a great job! Responsible financial planning by our leadership may allow us to purchase some much-needed scoring hardware for the '08 season.
The club representatives in attendance were LMC, Buzzards, Stump Jumpers, and Bent Wheels. The first 3 had voting power, and Bent Wheels was there because they have a renewed interest in getting back into promoting enduro events. They run trials events on their property, and have plans to help expand the Endurocross series here in Michigan.
More info...
2008 Rule Changes
-> http://www.d14enduro.org/rule_proposals/2008/2008_d14_enduro_rule_changes.pdf
To help identify and highlight what's been changed to the existing rules (refer to document link above):
1A- Competition Classes: Set minimum age limit for C-Junior.
1B - Row Assignments: First paragraph new / changed.
1C - Event Forms / Results: Second paragraph new.
1D - Events Counted In Series / Breaking Ties: Fixed typo in number of drops; clarified tie breaking rules.
:cool:
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- Oct 28, 2001
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I think Tom is back in meetings today, but this is what I jotted down as the '08 schedule (may not be 100% correct, and subject to change):
FES: 8 Events ( :cool: F&S)
AMA: 8-9 Events
4/12: Sand Booger FES
4/13: Sand Goblin AMA
4/26: Arbor Day FES
4/27: Tree Planting
6/14: Mini Moose FES
6/15: Loose Moose AMA / National
6/28: Baby Buzzard FES
6/29: Mosquito Classic AMA - *STILL UP IN THE AIR*
7/12: Matthews Family Enduro - FES
(Sunday 7/13 is Muddobber's Dual Sport)
7/26: Pine Cone FES
7/27: Jack Pine AMA
8/9: Summer Bummer Day 1 AMA
8/10: Summer Bummer Day 2 AMA
9/28: Stump Jumper AMA
10/11: GKTR Family Enduro FES (Roselawn)
10/12: Muddobber AMA (Upland)
11/1: Riders M/C FES
11/2: Turkey Creek AMA
FES: 8 Events ( :cool: F&S)
AMA: 8-9 Events
4/12: Sand Booger FES
4/13: Sand Goblin AMA
4/26: Arbor Day FES
4/27: Tree Planting
6/14: Mini Moose FES
6/15: Loose Moose AMA / National
6/28: Baby Buzzard FES
6/29: Mosquito Classic AMA - *STILL UP IN THE AIR*
7/12: Matthews Family Enduro - FES
(Sunday 7/13 is Muddobber's Dual Sport)
7/26: Pine Cone FES
7/27: Jack Pine AMA
8/9: Summer Bummer Day 1 AMA
8/10: Summer Bummer Day 2 AMA
9/28: Stump Jumper AMA
10/11: GKTR Family Enduro FES (Roselawn)
10/12: Muddobber AMA (Upland)
11/1: Riders M/C FES
11/2: Turkey Creek AMA
Wolverine423
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Summer bummer Day 1 paying Distr.14 points or is it like last year 15 - 17 points only?
- Feb 3, 2001
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D14 is counting both days of the Summer Bummer this year. We did our best to keep a week between each events.
FES will be counting the best five rides of the eight available and the top three in each class will be invited to the banquet - same as last year.
The Bentwheels club is setting up a mini Endurocross series. They will have three events and none of them conflict with an Enduro or HS. One in on a free weekend, one is midweek (part of a local fair - I think) and the third will be on a Saturday night at the same location as a hare scramble on Sunday. Sounds interesting - to watch!
FES will be counting the best five rides of the eight available and the top three in each class will be invited to the banquet - same as last year.
The Bentwheels club is setting up a mini Endurocross series. They will have three events and none of them conflict with an Enduro or HS. One in on a free weekend, one is midweek (part of a local fair - I think) and the third will be on a Saturday night at the same location as a hare scramble on Sunday. Sounds interesting - to watch!
Wolverine423
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Great - A 4 lap harescramble on Saturday. As a matter of fact I don't think they through any checks out on last years Saturday event.... :laugh:fatherandson said:
Thank's bill for posting the schedule,
Alot went on in elections (Saturday night.) And at the new board meeting on Sunday morning.
We have a new VP. Bart Newman,so The executive board is now run by MX group.
I have no worries though as Bart has some great ideas to help promote the Tree Planting and the FES.
Bobie Marr although not our treasurer any longer will still be in the loop, her company will still be the membership administer.
New Person doing the paper,she will need our help with article.
There will be no january paper,to cut so e costs this year and Feb issue I believe will be Barts last.
Met AMA Off-road Director Chuck Weir as he performed the Risk management meeting.
Now is it the Off-Season?
Thomas Dunn
AMA D14 Enduro Chair
Alot went on in elections (Saturday night.) And at the new board meeting on Sunday morning.
We have a new VP. Bart Newman,so The executive board is now run by MX group.
I have no worries though as Bart has some great ideas to help promote the Tree Planting and the FES.
Bobie Marr although not our treasurer any longer will still be in the loop, her company will still be the membership administer.
New Person doing the paper,she will need our help with article.
There will be no january paper,to cut so e costs this year and Feb issue I believe will be Barts last.
Met AMA Off-road Director Chuck Weir as he performed the Risk management meeting.
Now is it the Off-Season?
Thomas Dunn
AMA D14 Enduro Chair
