Family Enduro Series - Class Structure?

[Smit-Dog]

We had a lot of riders participate in the Family Enduro Series this year... Over 500 entries across 5 events, with 368 up-and-coming enduro riders. If there is to be a future for enduro competition, this is where the seed is planted.

Anyway, the series started out with 11 classes, but due to tremendous competition and popularity of the 12-15 year old class, it was expanded mid-season from 2 to 4 classes. The 16+ class is also very popular, with 126 riders. This class also had to be broken out at the Pine Cone due to the number of riders.

Looking towards the 2007 season with the potential for additional events and growth, along with the spread of family enduros via the NEPG, I thought it'd be a good time to re-evaluate class structure for this series.

Like the regular D-14 enduro series, I think it makes sense to break-out classes by age group. Considering that most are new to enduros or possibly new to trail riding in general, I don't think it'd make sense to break out classes by skill / experience (e.g., A/B/C).

Displacement and/or engine type (2-stroke / 4-stroke), however, I think are a factor for the smaller class of bikes. The suspension, power, and handling of an CR-80 is in a whole other league compared to an XR-80.... same with a KX-100 vs an XR-100.

In looking at the typical bikes at these events and considering what manufacturers offer, deciding on class breakout is not very cut and dry.

I'm looking for suggestions and feedback on what riders think make sense for FES classes that will 1) Accommodate the large and diverse set of riders, and 2) Make the class breakout equitable and competitive.

As part of this too, we should set some rules for determining what class a rider should enter and remain in for the duration of the season. This past season we had some kids who entered the 9-11 year old class at Roselawn and Arbor Day events, then switched to the 12-15 year old class the rest of the season (had a birthday mid-season). They were probably just going by their current age for each event, but it was not doing the riders any favors points-wise. We had to manually switch these riders back to the class they started with for computing points. Since kids can and do grow quite a bit over the course of a season, rather than use the January 1st date to determine class by age, I'd like to propose that we use March 31st as the cutoff. Whatever age you are on March 31st determines the class you will run for the entire season. Part of this may just be noting this on the event fliers and at sign-up. Not a huge deal, but will help streamline the processing of event results.

To get things started, attached below is the break / count by class for the 2006 season, as well as 2 proposals for 2007.

Please let me know what you think... Including other proposals, or a hybrid based on what's listed. Thanks!

 

[YAMAHUNT]

I like what you have done, Here are some comments I have heard though out the year:
1. a 80cc parent seems to care wether his child was beat by a kid on 125cc.
2. women's class some have said their should be another break maybe 25+.
3. the 16+ classes needs to be more divided other than just 16+ (bike size)
there were over 50 entrants in one class at PC.

So I like proposal 1, but this would depend on what the FES points fund can support at the end of the year...I like the fact that the FES can give awards to the top 3 in each class. if this can be maintained I am for adding the 2 or more extra classes.

With that being said, I think the J class should be 9-15 yr old women. maybe even a girls 4-8 yrs old too. ??? maybe this might get to many classes and I know that there are some young ladies that would rather race against everyone in their age group.

Good job Bill

 

[Smit-Dog]

Thanks for the feedback Aaron...

1. a 80cc parent seems to care wether his child was beat by a kid on 125cc.

Are you saying that a parent of an 80cc rider is not happy that their kid was beat by a kid on a 125cc bike? Not sure I understand this comment.

2. women's class some have said their should be another break maybe 25+.

I'm trying to keep in mind the rider counts for the existing women's class. Seems like the sweet spot is around 25 riders per class. If we do segment it, don't know how the counts will pan out until towards the end of the season.

With that being said, I think the J class should be 9-15 yr old women. maybe even a girls 4-8 yrs old too. ???

Hmmmm... Could be big difference between a 9 year old girl and 15 year old woman. Don't know if there'd be enough riders to support a decent 4-8 girls class. Maybe a 4-10 year old girl's class???

 

[KTM Mike]

Bill - I like the proposal 1 due to the 12/13, and 14/15 split. there is a huge developmental difference in kids between 12 and 15. the current structure putting a 12 year old up against a 15 year old does not seem to totally make sense to me.

For a similar reason, i think i prefer the class J and K splits in your proposal #2 over the class L in proposal 1.

I do wonder if in the older classes, there should be some skill level recognition however? Dunno what exactly age I think of as "older" - but certainly those above 11 or so? maybe startin at 15? Here I am thinking of (for example) an "experienced" 15 year old, vs a really new to riding 15 year old.

And, on a final note, this one being a bit of a departure of the strong "kid" oriented focus of the FES races, and am not totally certain I like the suggestion of any departure from that...but here goes. I wonder if there is a segement of adult trail riders uncomfortable with a full tilt enduro ( having heard to many horror stories from the Moose perhaps?) but wants to try an enduro on for size. Your class structure seems to facilitate that. But I wonder if some other shifts in the event structure might draw more adult trail riders in? Like no 12 mph section for over X age, all at 18, maybe a bit longer loop? Sorta like a "D" class instead of the C class in the current full tilt events. The reason I suggest no 12 mph part, is do these sort of riders blow that off thinking "its just a kiddie event" ( I realize of course they wont be as likely to get the benefit of really experiencing the fine art of time keeping)

Great job on all this stuff Bill! You have been spending a lot of think tank time huh!? (now on to read your suggestions for the full tilt event class structure...at a first glance, I think you are onto something....)

Mike

 

[Smit-Dog]

Thanks Mike... I also prefer the 16+ breakdown in proposal #2.

I think the 12mph first loop / 18mph second loop works out well. The really young kids only have to do the first loop, and I don't think we want a mix of 4-7 year olds and 16+ year olds going more than 12mph on the same section of trail. I'd agree that a longer, 18 mph second loop would be great.

Shown below is part of the 12-15 year old class. Can you guess which one is the 15 year old?

 

[YAMAHUNT]

That was what I heard at the mm....."a 80cc parent seems to care wether his child was beat by a kid on 125cc". I think some of the classes were combined up there (not sure) and the guy was upset until he found out you guys would be re grouping for points.

As for the women classes, I am not sure there would be enough rider turn out support that either, those were just comments I heard during scoring at pc.

I still think that there at least needs to be a girls class for the 9-11 yr olds. just in case they don't want to race against the boys. as for the 4-8 thats probably getting to many classes and is fine keeping them grouped together.

 

[KTM Mike]

Bill - FWIW - when I was suggesting a 16+ 18 mph only thing - what i was picturing was the littler kids go out first, with out the 16+ 18 mph only riders. 12 mph loop ends, and a longer 18 mph second loop starts. This would avoid the concern you raised.

Yeah, that one kid towers over the others! Ironically, as you know, my 13 year old is already almost as big as I am though...so size dont tell the whole story! Regardless of size there are still huge developmental differences between 12 and 15.

thanks again for the hard work on this stuff Bill!

 

[fatherandson]

I am doing some research for the NEPG related to family/youth events. It is very interesting how other districts run these events (classes and format) and their participation levels.
I agree we need to amend some of the classes. As I noted in the other forum, the biggest issue for the clubs are the trophies. We also need to be consistent for the entire series.
The input for those who ride these events is definitely appreciated.

 

[Wolverine423]

I would go with proposal #2, but I would like to see 9-11 & 12-15 run what you brung regardless 2st verses 4st. {Look whats happening with the Sunday enduros} as there are to many classes to fill with to many trophys to hand out. Now we all know larger CC's does not determine class winners in enduros. *DB 125 @ LM 60 yrs*

DW

 

[fatherandson]

I would go with proposal #2, but I would like to see 9-11 & 12-15 run what you brung regardless 2st verses 4st. {Look whats happening with the Sunday enduros} as there are to many classes to fill with to many trophys to hand out. Now we all know larger CC's does not determine class winners in enduros. *DB 125 @ LM 60 yrs*

DW

After some review, I agree with DW on # 2 for the age groups for the younger riders, but I do not think we need to split by two or four stroke. However, I like the agent split for the 16+ in proposal # 3.
Bill, thanks for the extra work to develop these proposals. It has prompted some good discussion on some necessary revisions. Hey..how come the big guy in the photo with the goofy name on his shirt has a SMALLER trophy than Zach?

 

[kdx633]

to take what mike said earlier a step further.14-16 year olds with advanced skills get bored quickly at 12 mph especially if it is on orv trail.adults who are uncomfortable riding the full blown enduro have nothing that compares to gain skills and confidence.
logistically this may be difficult to do but lets throw it out there anyway.how about a family enduro event that has an advanced class that would ride some event style of trail at 18 mph.much like the aa-a loops and b-c cutoff kind of thing.

 

[Smit-Dog]

We had just over 100 riders in the 12-15 class this year, so it seems to make sense that we try to split them out somehow.

I still would suggest it's either by age (12-13 class and 14-15 class) or by engine type (2-stroke / 4-stroke). The technology and performance of small-wheeled 4-stroke bikes is not on par with the current class of 4-stroke full-sized bikes. There are plenty of full-sized, race-ready 4-strokes out there now... not the case with the smaller bikes. Would it be a competitive class with a 12 year old on an XR-80 competing against a 15 year old on a YZ-125? The DB analogy isn't relevant to the FES. :think:

Based on some comments and feedback, listed below is a new proposal #3 - all classes based on age or sex, not equipment; discuss amongst yourselves! :cool:

 

[Smit-Dog]

Hey..how come the big guy in the photo with the goofy name on his shirt has a SMALLER trophy than Zach?

That trophy is actually 2 feet tall... the kid was a giant.... wouldn't want to be center-punched by him in a corner! :ohmy:

 

[Smit-Dog]

Food for thought...

Here are the top 20 riders (out of 103) in the 12-15 year old class, along with their specific displacement class. Please comment if you know these were 2-stroke or 4-stroke bikes.

 

[fatherandson]

I do like the revised proposal # 3. It does look very similar to the class structure used in other district for their family/youth events.

1- 4s
2 - 2s
3- 2s
4 - 4s
5 - 2s

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Bill, how did you determine the top 20? Total points? Or comparing scores at each event?

 

[Wolverine423]

to take what mike said earlier a step further.14-16 year olds with advanced skills get bored quickly at 12 mph especially if it is on orv trail.adults who are uncomfortable riding the full blown enduro have nothing that compares to gain skills and confidence.
logistically this may be difficult to do but lets throw it out there anyway.how about a family enduro event that has an advanced class that would ride some event style of trail at 18 mph.much like the aa-a loops and b-c cutoff kind of thing.

If a rider in the FES series feels that it’s time he or she needs to be tested with an advance class or A - AA or B & C cut off type event trail then I would recommend to stay over another night and enter up on Sunday's program. I feel that the FES is for family ride together’s along with being a stepping stone for the big show on Sundays. I also purpose that ALL Sandbaggers are to have their coolers confiscated along with drive byes performed on their bikes.... ;)

DW

 

[fatherandson]

In four of our five events this year no one zeroed the entire event. I agree round # 2 at Leetsville is very boring at 12 mph and we will be changing locations in 2007. The other events proved to test timekeeping abilities at 12 mph and test riding abilities of the older riders at 18 mph. I do not see a need for a special loop for the 14+ year old riders. I agree with DW. If FES is a boring ride, see you on Sunday!

 

[kdx633]

no offense was intended.The fes is a good stepping stone and a great program."No one zero'd a section" no but plenty burned checks.See you on sunday not an option for under 16 and unplated.Was not trying to change the program to suit MY needs just expanding on a scenario.Bottom line a bit more of a challenge for the advanced young rider may help to keep the interest until license and plate thing is no longer an issue.

 

[Smit-Dog]

... Bill, how did you determine the top 20? Total points? Or comparing scores at each event?

I combined all riders in the 12-15 class, ranked them within each of the individual events (compared scores), assigned points accordingly for each event, then ranked them based total points. Make sense? I can post a copy so you can verify that it's done correctly.

 

[Wolverine423]

Kdx663, None was taken- just my opinion. Maybe a MPH change could take care of that problem on the FES course.

DW

 

[fatherandson]

Bill, no need to verify...just curious.
KDX - no offense taken here either, just wanted to share information/opinion.

 

[Smit-Dog]

What's interesting is that within class, it was Max Griffin 1st, Evan Brooks 2nd, but overall it was Evan Brooks 2nd and Max Griffin 6th.

 

[WomanRider]

I have a blast riding the FES. I have only been riding motorcycles for three seasons, and my daughter two. We are still inexperienced and like the fact that the first loop is 12 mph. During the FES we have had up to 4 family members riding at a time. During the 12mph loop we are able to ride as a family. This loop is more family oriented since we are able to communicate and help each other. During the 18 mph loop, we find ourselves riding alone because we have different riding abilities. So my suggestion is to keep the 12 mph for all riders and the 18 mph for the older riders as we have during the 06 season. The 18 mph gives us time to improve out skills.

As for determining the age of the rider for the season, we had an issue with it this year, since my daughter turned 16 in June. The first race she rode this year was Kalkaska, June 10th. She was 15 at the time; we were not sure which class to sign her up for, so we asked at sign up. We were told she could ride either the 11-15 women’s or the 16+ women’s. She chose to ride the 16+ women’s. She wanted to accumulate points in the same class for the season. If we new about the age cut off rule, she would have ridden the younger class. So, as suggested earlier by someone, please post the age cut off date a rider rides for the year on the flyers, and class listing at the event. This rule should be known by those working at sign-up.

For class breakdown:
Yes, divide the 16+ class. I like the way it is divided in proposal 1. Why? My opinion is biased so I will not say.

I wonder if the women’s class should be: up to 18 and 19+. The younger class does not have as many participants as the older. This might even these classes up. This could also discourage the younger girls, since they would be competing against high school age riders. This was just a thought. Might be best to keep the class as is and change it in future years depending on participation.

The 12 to 15 year old classes might need to be by 12 years; 13 years, 14 years and 15 years. This would help developmental differences between the ages. The way it is broken down in proposal 3 the classes would be too big.

As far as trophies go to help the clubs if more classes are added:
All children under 15 should get trophies. The older classes should be based on a percentage of riders signed up just like the Sunday enduros.

I have trophies to donate back to the clubs. Who wants them?

 

[INCA]

Bill - Thanks for doing away with the age limit. It takes out the threat of protest.

 

[fatherandson]

WR - your first paragraph is EXACTLY what we want the FES to be for everyone! There are other examples of families who have similar experiences and maybe some day the younger riders will be racing on Sunday.

Age cut off - I like January 1 - because it is simple. Your age at the beginning of the year is the class you ride in for the rest of the season.

Trophies? You should bring them to Trailfest in October and we will put them in the LMC lodge. I have tried to limit the number of trophies in the older age classes. However, I am not in charge of trophy presentations and....