Tech-care suspension

[jzyz]

Has anyone used Tech-care suspension and what did you think? They are only an hour away from me and I'm thinking about having my suspension done this season.

 

[rollingp]

Dave Bowmen owns tech care and his suspension guy is good I would use them.
Mike Weisner is very good and he charges $75.00 for the shock and $125.00 for the forks and will stand behind it.
We hust had a couple of brothers out at our track one with a 02 250 sx and a 125. The 250 had $750.00 worth of work done to the suspension. I checked the fork oil level and one leg was 100 mm and the other was 70mm. The oil was trans fluid and was all foamed up.
The last 4 inches of the forks was not getting used at all. I dropped the level to 120mm and the guy said it was much better. Then I took off his valved shock with the straight rate spring and put my weisner valved shock with a progressive on his bike and the guy was so mad because mine was plush and the bike was 100% better. After a little balancing the bike was handled pretty good.
He is now going to have it revalved by Weisner.
The straight rate spring was way too stiff for the guy and even the spring chart showed it was way off for his weight.

 

[Jeff Howe]

I have to ask? How did you know it was ATF? By the smell or what?

 

[kciH]

When you know the difference between the two,
there isn't too much to doubt. :D The ATF is usually red and has a sllightly different smell to it. You should use suspension oil, as it is suited to the job at hand. You might save a few bucks using "whatever" is cheapest, and some of the older bikes reccomend ATF, but whats a few bucks when you are doing this level of maintenance.

 

[rollingp]

I can tell after 25 years of working on bikes and using t fluid when it was the norm and before there were so many good fluids out there.
I like the torco oils because it has the best resistance to foaming of all the oils I have tried in my bikes.
I also know for a fact the guy that valved this suspension uses his own mixture of atf and other additives.
I just raced against Dave Bowmen up at RED BUD sunday May 4th and after
we got done battling and he beat me ( another story ) I got to talking to him about his suspension and the guys he has valving it.
They are all in there middle thirties and both race and have alot of actual experiance and training as well as practical hands on school of hard knocks .
The top riders in the 35 and 40 expert class had their suspension done by tech care and Weisner.

 

[Jeremy Wilkey]

Motoeuro,
Since you have such a great understanding of suspenson and design what physical properties make a good fluid. Why would M1 ATF be a bad choice. And what is this fellow mixing with his ATF? So it was fomed up but somehow you got a accuraturate reading on ht..


So where does this leave us? Well I think your taking your shot to discredit me.. Nice, well I can't say much beacause I don't know... But I'm willing to bet that thise I invloves someone I know.. Had there been any issues I surely would have handled them approperaletly. As a mattr of fact I replaced a set of selas for this guy as a curtisy...

I'll be in contact with my customer tommrow, and in the mean time why don't you get your buddies and lets have a little debate on PDS shock function.

Regards,
Jer

 

[Jeremy Wilkey]

Motoeuro, Motoeuro,
Where are you buddy? Comon lets go. Since you have already taken you shots I want mine.

Regards,
Jer

 

[yz_387]

We seem to have gone way off topic here. To answer the original question, yes I have ridden some bikes with tech care suspension. I have mixed things to say. First, I have ridden a '97 CR250 before and after tech care did the suspension, and they did an EXCELLENT job. That is saying a lot considering how much everyone hated the way that bike handled stock. I also have ridden a '98 yz 250 with tech care suspension. It handled well, but I didn't ride that bike stock, so I really can't tell you if it was any better. Finally I have ridden a '98 yz125 done by tech care. I have to say they missed the mark with that bike. They went with considerably heavier springs for the owner's weight, but for whatever reason, the bike bottomed much easier than stock. The owner was not happy with the performance, and tech care didn't have any interest in trying to help him remedy the problem. If you would like to have your suspension done close to home, I would suggest checking into MCR (Matt Crown Racing). He doesn't go to extreme of the big companies and replace pistons etc, he only adjusts the valving for the rider's preference. He does an excellent job for a very reasonable price. But if money is no object, and you want the ultimate suspension you may want to check into the big companies.

In a nutshell, if it were me and I was concerned about price I would go with MCR, if not I would probably choose MX-tech. Good Luck!

 

[Jeremy Wilkey]

YZ,
Thank you! That was a fair way to put it.. I Keep out of it till ME ran his mouth about something he has no comprehension of.. I want to bust him, and intend to... As for your stamtents fair, and thank you..

I take this ocupation way too seriously for some idoit to take shots where he has no means or postion too... Some of My colleuges and myself put ourselves out on the line and offer our expertise and exspereince every day. We love our ocupations and strive to do the best all the time..

Then you get some fly by night who dosenot understand anything start troble, it just angers me the point I have to clear the air..

Wheres Wesiner, or Bowman? That don't come here beacuse they can't hang..

Regards,
Jer

 

[MikeT]

Just latching on to this soon to be exciting thread. ;)

 

[jzyz]

Thank for the input YZ_387, I will keep that in mind. I like the way my bike handle now except for the forks bottoming(real big jumps only)and it feels a little harsh through the mid stroke. The shock is fine but is due for service so I guess I'm saying that I just need a touch-up on it. BTW is there any benefit to having the bike done as a complete bike vs. just sending out the forks and shock?

 

[yz_387]

jzyz and jer, no problem, glad I could help. But for the record, I am not trying to put down Bowman, Wesiner, or Tech care, I am just trying to give my 2 cents. Like I said, I have ridden bikes that they did a very good job on, and I know guys who swear by them.

 

[yz_387]

Oh and jzyz, do you mean sending in the forks and shock in together rather than one at a time? If that is what you mean, I would strongly suggest having both done at the same time to ensure the bike will remain balanced.

 

[jzyz]

No I ment dropping off the whole bike. Thanks

 

[Jeff Howe]

Originally posted by kciH
When you know the difference between the two,
there isn't too much to doubt. :D The ATF is usually red and has a sllightly different smell to it.

So...thats the difference? :D

Why the difference in smell? The odor distinguishes it as a poor choice then I presume? I still have not gotten a answer to the "one way" properties of it. I find that totally interesting that a fluid's chemistry would be "uni-directional". Like what if you put it in backwards? You know, like what if you poured the wrong end in first? Thats funny.

I love that...I need to find out how they do that. Anybody here know?

 

[Jeremy Wilkey]

Originally posted by Shocknut

I still have not gotten a answer to the "one way" properties of it. I find that totally interesting that a fluid's chemistry would be "uni-directional". Like what if you put it in backwards? You know, like what if you poured the wrong end in first? Thats funny.

I love that...I need to find out how they do that. Anybody here know?

Jeff,
Dude your slaying me..


Well here is an update.. My customer just walked out of here. The situation is very diferent from what MotoEuro offered... It seems that my customer was asking some questions beacuse motoeuro was impostering a suspension tuner..

After making adjustments (IE making the clicker soo soft that the forks got spongy, (trying to create bottoming they went inside).....

Long of the short of its MotoEuro has an agenda to tarnish my reputaion. I suspect its beacuse his Hero and total hack buddy has something aghainst my role as a WP distributor... I mean how long ago was he "Kelley Smiths" Parts changer?

The funny part about the whole deal, I have no idea who RollingGP is or his new identy MotoEuro.. I've never done work for the guy, so let it go.. If you want to recomnend someoneby all means, but don't drag me into or down bacuse of your obvously biased opinion...

Rather yet, since you can't think for yourself, yet know so much of Mr. Weisners gosple, why dosen't your hero come here and duke it out like a real man? I mean I've heard what he thinks of me.. he won't even say anything to my face, or make a statement on my forum, because like I said he can't hang. So he finds the misinformed to spread his crap. Or maybe better yet, if he new some jerk like you was causing all this trouble maybe he'd ask you not to have anything to do with him..

Well theres the callout..


JW

 

[yz_387]

jzyz, I see no advantage to dropping off the whole bike.

 

[Wakisashi]

I personally would be interested in a technical discussion of the PDS shock if everyone could be civil about it. I have only a small amount of time playing with one of these and have never seen the internals of one.

One way fluid??? That is a new one to me.

 

[Jeff Howe]

Total civility will restore itself on that topic if you open one up I bet? Jer likes to talk WP shocks I think.

"one way fluid" was shockdocs terminology for Mobil 1 ATF. I need to find out more about this, I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I've just never heard of it before. When I find out for sure I'll let ya know. I just had to make a joke in times of heat here.

 

[MikeT]

Is a "PDS" shock one that works on a bike without progressive linkage? I have a YZ125 and it has progressive linkage. I have seen bikes, KTM's I think, that the shock connects directly to the top of the swingarm. If that is where a PDS shock is used, why are the internals different? I know nothing about what PDS even stands for so be easy on me.

MikeT

 

[John Curea]

kciH

And for debate purposes, why should we not use mobil 1 atf? And I dont want to hear that "because it dont say suspension fluid on the bottle". How about a good tech answer, ever do any research with the Mobil engineers?

BTW, you can spend from $4.00 to $30.00 for "suspension" fluid, whats the difference?

Life in a "packaged" society........



Take Care, John

 

[Wakisashi]

Just to play the "opfor" here ,

Is there a reason other than the cheaper price to use it? I know it is available at AutoZone but it isn`t a big investment to stock a few quarts of a fluid until you need it.

The VI numbers are low compared to shock fluids but in line with fork fluids. Why not use a higher VI fluid to fight heat fade in the shock? Whats a couple bucks for the potential to fight off a late race fade?

 

[Jeff Howe]

Yep, it's synthetic.

Big question is... how much of a VI rating is really required? I know of synthetic hydrualic fluids with VI's of 140 that are recommended for use in systems with operating temps up to 275 deg. Don't get me wrong...I'm just throwing out some food for thought. I'll be back, gotta spend some time with the kids right now.

Hey John, we should NOT use M1 ATF because it don't say "suspension fluid" on the bottle! :confused: hehehehe.. anyway, How many guys have you set up that have had problems with it? It's always the guys that know whats in there. Ive run it alot in my shock before, no problems, stays clean, exhibits a little initial fade on warm up but most guys cannot even tell, you feel this only in rebound as far as I can tell.

Wanna hear something really funny? I had a guy tell me that he faded his shock to nothing after 45minutes with M1 ATF in the shock. I asked what he set his regulator pressure at when he charged it, and he said 150. Chances are good his shock was pressurized in the 130 neighborhood. Anyway, SO he later pulls it apart to change the fluid and when he does this the oil is foamed up. hehehehe..you ever seen a shock not foam the oil when you pull it apart? I can foam any shock with any oil when I pull it apart to some extent. So of course the oil is bad, and now after I told him to set his regulator pressure to 200 when charging his shock, and he used "shock oil" he has had no problems, so the ATF was the problem. Of course he runs around blabbing his mouth the ATF foams up now. I have not heard from him on the $1000 offer I made that I can foam his shock with whatever oil he wants to put in it when I pull it apart. And he hasn't grasped the fact that I have lots of satisfied customers that have used it without problems. Ok, but for the record, I no longer use it anymore, except I may use it as a 10wt fork oil in the outer chamber of Showa TC forks. M1 ATF does have some desireable properties to it, I have seen alot less internal wear with this stuff compared to stock fluids.

 

[Jeremy Wilkey]

The questions that should be asked are what is the real role of VI.. And what affects wear of your fluid.. The major things that we've talked about include the fact Synththics wear longer, And gernally don't oxidize like say the mineral based fluids. This translates into less coreupted oil over time, and if the adtive pack is good, less wearetc...

TheMineral fluids that you brought up in example have higer VI, which mean basicaly the thinkness factor of the fluid is more stable over a widder range of tempertures.. So this is good when we have larger sweep of temp from ambient to operating... However the mineral fluids will wear and break down faster in a higher temp aplication...

I belive that in a Jap shock the Lower VI is less critcal, and less noticeable.. And the fluid comes out great.. However in WP shock this is a major problem. Creating a fluid with a high enough VI, and a sythetic base is hard... And what I've been working on..

Regards,
Jer


PS.. Shocknut, how did I do.?. Jeff and I have been having some ecellent dialog on fluids and chemisty, and I've learned a great deal from him already..

 

[Harry Reed]

Jer,
I would like to offer some help on the subject of fluids. Why don't you send me some of your shock fluid. I can run that, mobil 1 atf, and some other off the shelf shock fluids on my dyno. I'll send you the dyno sheets when i am done. Then you can post them. Might be pretty informative !
I am pretty open to finding new and better shock fluids.
Call me if you want me to do this.
Harry