Yes Im sorry another needle question???

[KAY DEE EXER]

Ive tried to search about the differences in a 1173 and the cek cel etc. that ive seen people talk about ...Im still at a loss as to the differences....Any help is greatly appreciated. Im on a 98 200 with airbox mod, full fmf exhaust, twinair, 155 45 1173k a/s 2 turns out. It runs great but I was wondering if theres still some power to be found with the experimentation of other needle configurations...
Thanx ALL !!!!

 

[OLD-N-SLOW]

Yes there is some power to be found, a lot actually. Go to the carb parts

 

[OLD-N-SLOW]

Let me try this again. Go to the Carb Parts Warehouse web site , and they
cover this issue pretty well. I think you will find the CEL needle will work
best with the stock slide(#5). be sure to buy an assortment of jets to go
along with it. Say maybe 148-155 main and 35-45 pilot.
The cel needle will provide more power and a more mx style hit.
Some use the BEL needle for more controlable power. Its all about what
you like. Prepare to be amazed,because this really makes a difference.
Good luck
Steve

 

[canyncarvr]

The carb parts warehouse site (www.carbparts.com) hasn't worked yet today. I've tried it several times. Don't know if that's a temporary issue or not.

Have you been to CDave's site? It's referenced in the 'Every kdx rider should read...' post stuck to the top of this board.

Check out <tech tips> <needle decoding>. That will tell all about different tapers and such...hopefully to the extent you will no longer be '..at a loss' about it at all.

Some 'light reading' HERE with special attention to what james dean has to say (forget that it's an RB carb thread. There is a LOT of general carb info there that you could benefit from).

Something crucial to the understanding of needles: The L1 length is not how long the straight section of the needle is!! It is the distance to the point at which the needle is 2.515mm in diameter (known as the 'magic number').

This is critical when it comes to understanding tapers. Knowing the above, you can understand that a slower angle (ex: 'A' or 1'00" taper) will have the taper start higher (earlier) on the needle than a faster angle (ex: 'C' or 1'34" taper) of the same L1. Because the angle is less on the 'A', it has to start sooner to have the same L1 as does a 'C' series needle.

This makes an 'A' needle richer-lower/leaner-higher and a 'C' needle leaner-lower/richer-higher.

Prepare to be amazed indeed. The proper 'C' series needle will knock your socks off! Yep..the CEL is a good place to start with the #5TV (oem slide).


If you have a specific question at a later time, please ask.


BTW...the numbers listed as 1'34" are 'minute-second' figures, or one minute, 34 seconds. There are 60 'minutes' in a circle, and 60 seconds in each minute of a particular arc.

So, a 1'34" taper (a 'C' needle) is roughly 1.5º An oem needle (a 'B' needle) is a 1'15" or 1.25º needle. An 'A' needle is 1'00" or 1º needle.

So...all your '..at a loss'es are gone, 'eh?

 

[89kdx200rdr]

did i read the chart right? r1173n = BGP. CEL is richer than BGP from 1/8 to 1/4 and 1/2 to 3/4 throttle?

 

[canyncarvr]

Pretty much.

The only place they are close is about 1/4 to 3/8. The CEL is considerably richer @ WOT. ..not sure why you say the '...and 1/2 to 3/4..' part.


BTW.......
This: 'This makes an 'A' needle richer-lower/leaner-higher and a 'C' needle leaner-lower/richer-higher.'

..applied only to similar spec needles, differing in taper.

In a comparison of an r1173n to a CEL, the diameters are considerably different. So is the L1.

 

[89kdx200rdr]

"The CEL is considerably richer @ WOT. ..not sure why you say the '...and 1/2 to 3/4..' part".
Because thats what's on the left hand side of this chart.

 

[89kdx200rdr]

But then i saw this and i think i know what you mean. didnt realize needle had that much effect at wot.

 

[andrew]

KAY DEE EXER, I am also about to try a new needle. I'm having trouble sourcing it in Australia, best price so far is $20, which is twice the price I was hoping for...that was from show & Go in Adelaide.
If you have a cheaper source, I would appreciate it if you would share it with me!
I was going to try a CEK as well, but not at $20 ea (plus postage).

my email is doddee@bigpond.com

thanks,
Andrew

 

[OLD-N-SLOW]

Andrew,
For the difference the needle makes $20.00 is a bargin! No kidding, huge change, for me more than any other mod. More power, runs better, never ever a plug problem, ever! Please do this mod, you will not be disapointed.
Steve

 

[KAY DEE EXER]

Thanks canyn im overwelmed with all that info so ill have to do alot of reading to try to decode all of it but thanks all the same it looks like some great info on needles. I was wondering when I look for the cek needles what do I ask for simply a cek needle or is there a # prefix or part number for different sized ones that I need to ask for specifically. Sorry if these are stupid questions but im really trying to grasp the broad spectrum of needle knowledge. To Andrew when I find some more info on what I need to order ill post a topic to you about a needle supplier if I find one thats cheaper for you. I could even bring it up there in early september if that is easier or post it in a secure packing...So ill let you know and thanks again ALL !!!!

 

[fuzzy]

I was going to try a CEK as well, but not at $20 ea (plus postage).

http://www.sudco.com has them cheaper....Must call for pricing.

 

[canyncarvr]

I don't know that sudco, carbparts or any other retailer sends stuff overseas.

In the US, it's $5 per needle. S&H applies of course.

Sorry about the bottom 1/2 of the world, though. I doan no nuthin bout it.

'CEL' (or the like) is all you need to know. That's a keihin number..no prefix or suffix needed.

You're likely thinking of something like the kawi oem needles..R1173N or whatever. That's a number kawi came up with (or they use and someone else came up with...).

Still, if you call sudco, order a 'CEL', they will know exactly what you are talking about.

Yes, it is worth $20.

89kdx:
Yeah..the CEL is listed on that chart. And that chart has a 1/8-1/4 1/4-3/4 axis definitions.

My point of view came from JD's spreadsheet with a BFQ compared to CEL, other jets, clip postions, slide, altitude and temps the same.

JD does sell his work. It's handy to see a graphical representation of needle/jet effect.

And, yes...as you say, the second chart indicates better the needle effect on WOT. So do some other charts.

Stands to reason that the only way a needle is going to have NO effect on the main is if it's way OUT of the main at WOT. That will depend on where it's clipped to some extent. At any rate, whatever goes through the main has to go past the needle too.

Kaydee:
No intent to overwhelm. It will all become clear after you dink with it some. Well..maybe MORE clear. I'm no jetting wizard. I have enjoyed HUGE benefit from JD's posts and result from his spreadsheet. The 'magic number' part (2.515mm is where L1 is measured to) was like a light bulb going on in my pea-brain. All of a sudden a whole lot of stuff made a whole lot more sense.

Keep after it. The benefit will not only evidence itself on your kdx...but any other machine you ride. Heck..even 4-strokes have jets!

 

[KAY DEE EXER]

Come to think of it I payed $46 for a 45 pilot and a r1173k needle from a dealer. So Im thinkin 20 bills might not be to bad after all. But ill still let you know for sure if I find a better price. As always Canyn thanks alot again and ill try to keep the stupid questions to a minimum. No promises ;P

 

[fatty_k]

I see at the top left corner of the diagram pj_jet.jpg posted above it shows a Keihin part # key. So if I want to order this needle through say a Yamaha dealership I will need to have this part #? N427-48-taper-L1-diameter? What would the CEL needle be with this key? My guess would be N427-48-134-3815-CEL017017. Also, do you think it would work well in my Gas Gas too. It has a PWK 38mm?

Thanks a lot.

 

[andrew]

KAYDEEEXER, I have taken on board the various comments about value for money, and have lashed out and ordered a CEL from Show & Go in Adelaide. The good news is that they have them in stock. I've probably spent the cost of the friggin thing in phone calls trying to locate another supplier, but I don't think there is one !

Fatty K, you just order a CEL needle for a PWK35; if your bike shop has trouble with that then the full keihin part number is N427-48CEL.

Cheers,
Andrew

 

[89kdx200rdr]

hey cc,
would you send me this link?
JD's spreadsheet

while i have your attention what c needle would be good to start with for a pwk35 with 45, 1173n, 155, #6 tv, 1.25 as. cel also? im running pretty much same mods as kay dee but on an 89 instead of 98.

 

[G. Gearloose]

Originally posted by 89kdx200rdr
cel also?

CGK

G for the 89-94
K for #6 slide
and you'll have to unload the 45 pilot, get a 38,40 and 42, with the middle being a good place to start.
You may also find you need a leaner main.

 

[CaptainObvious]

89kdx200rdr,

Are you sure about the #6 slide? The '89 came stock with a #5. That is a leaner slide than the #6.

 

[89kdx200rdr]

yeah rv6 its a 6 and its the tv that came in the bike new. heres a pic of service manual. i'll send a pic of the carb later.

 

[KAY DEE EXER]

OK so here goes... Well ive got the impression that a CEL is my best choice for an OEM #5 slide. I was wondering if its also the right idea to get 38,40,42 pilots and 148,150,152 main jets for the tuning process. Remembering I have the 45 pilot and 155 main. Is this the right range of jets I need? ANDREW may I ask why it is you are going for the CEK as opposed to the CEL. You guys are just a wealth of info and I cant thank everyone enough (ecspecially CANYN YOU are the man !!!) Oh BTW Im still at a loss understanding all the needle lingo but Im learning slowly and it all takes time so please bear with me. Thanks dude...

 

[CaptainObvious]

This is strange. When I was looking for needle advise I too thought that my bike had a #6 slide. In fact, if you look at the manual or the buykawasaki website it does show a #6.

But one of the needle guru's (I'll do a search and look up who it was) said "are you sure, the E model KDX's had a #5 slide". Sure enough, I pulled it out and looked at it and it was a #5.

I have a slide from an '89 at home. I'll take a look at it tonight.

 

[canyncarvr]

re:'The '89 came stock with a #5. That is a leaner slide than the #6.'

That is correct.

Well, if stated oppositely, anyway! ;)

The higher the cut on the slide (throttle valve or TV), the more lean it is.

In progression from rich(er) to lean(er) it's 5-6-7. (or 6.5 or whatever else you gots).

Kaydee:
Your jet selection should include about everything you'll need. Real high loads and lotsa air (sand @ sealevel) will take richer than even oem...probably.
***edit***
I believe the '94 has a different jet block height, so needle L1 may well be different. I don't know that ALL 'E' models are that way. That's where Gloose's 'G' comes in.

I haven't run 'C' needles with a #6. Fishhead liked:

CEJ-3 #7
CEK-3 #6
CEL-3 #5

He noted that the CEJ would want a fairly lean pilot to keep the plug from loading up on long downhills.

I'm running a CEK-3 with my #7 with a 38-148. Plug load is non-existent. Clean as a pin. Not a 4-stroke ever nowhere.

re: JD's spreadsheet is HERE!

Cheers!

 

[KAY DEE EXER]

This is probably one of those silly questions but do u think I should get all the way upto and beyond OEM jet size main & pilot? OR Do you think I should go with the #7 slide with your combination? I promise I wont take the credit for it.LOL. No but seriously Ive already wasted $50 on jets and needles so I'd hate to know that im just wasting money experimenting with other combinations. I know that it depends on alot of different factors but just as a general starting point where do you think I should begin ????? Thank you .....

 

[89kdx200rdr]

i bought this bike brand new in 1989 and i have never changed it. service manual states #6, buykawasaki says #6 until 1995 then they go to #5. heres my slide in pic.