a nutter mud question. Fell a lot. HELP!!!!!

[wannayz]

Sorry but searching the posts just confused me. My bike's a thumper and the track was dry/sandy soil but wetted down quite a bit leaving mud over hardpack and FLAT turn. When focused I concentrate on sitting over the tank, leaning bike but keeping body upright thus weighting the outside peg, smooth throttle out of turn, outside elbow high and inside leg out. (Just saying this because I try hard to concentrate on technique). But in this flat turn I kept BADLY sliding out and fell a couple times, last time hard enough to finish my riding for the day (kneecap still sore). I think it was the rear wheel sliding out. Maybe I wasn't focused enough, maybe tired and not smooth with the throttle.
Next time I want to make sure I am weighting the outside peg and I figure that if I am on the tank, the rear can slide while my body acts as a pivot point ahead of it. Maybe I sat too far back and got thrown off balance with the rear. But, some posts say "stay on the rear for traction". Big difference!!!!!!!!!! and enough to get me hurt. I could use some advice here and any other pointers. Thanks.

 

[RM_guy]

On a turn like that you need to "flat track" it around. Don't lean the bike but keep it upright and steer with the rear wheel. While keeping the front wheel pointed in the direction you want to go, carefully break the back end loose with the throttle. The trick is to use enough gas to keep the rear spinning but not so much that it slides out on you. Sit up near the tank to keep your weight on the front wheel and keep your feet on the pegs.

It takes lots of practice so start out slow and work your way up to it.

If you have ever driven a rear wheel drive car in the snow you have used this technique.

 

[tedkxkdx]

In England this type of thing happens as well. I have found that flat tracking is not always the best way especially when it is very slippery. Something else to try is sliding both the front and back tires while your body is seated and in the middle of the bike. Weight outside peg and steer by leaning the bike more into or out of the turn. This works best if you are not charging hard for the corner and braking a whole lot but more even throttle into the corner.

 

[wannayz]

That's much appreciated. Not putting my foot out will take some guts on my part as my confidence re: not going down again, is nil. Looks like my only riding day will be Saturday after forecasted T-storms so I 'll get my chance to practice.
Thanks.

 

[High Lord Gomer]

Something else to look for are ruts and berms...they are your friends!

In slippery conditions, a rut or a berm will hold you much better than trying to slide around in the smooth part of a turn. Many people go way inside counting on the fact that they will drift and slide to the outside. The problem with that approach is that when you do get to the berm, you're more likely to slide over it. If you're pretty sure you're going to slide out to the berm anyway, start out there and use it all the way around the turn.

Another thing is to ride a gear high, your big 4 stroke will be able to pull 3rd around the turns and careful throttle control will help keep the back end from breaking loose.

As you mentioned, if it's muddy and the rear end is slipping out, you're either too far forward or getting on the gas too hard (or both). If the front end is sliding out, you're not far enough forward. Move around until you find that, when going too fast, both ends are drifting equally in the turns.

 

[wannayz]

The beauty in taking up a new challenge is that you discover things daily. But right now I'm stumped.
I've gone down a fair number of times before but this spooked me because it kept happening and i couldn't correct it. And I've ridden plenty of times in the mud (though hurt my knee last year in mud too). I stopped riding that day but now want to get back on the horse. I only hope there is mud tomorrow.
Still I'm unsure how to tackle it - best I think to take it gently and see what happens as I build up speed. There were no berms/ruts , just a washout muddy turn - but I think weighting the outside peg and smooth throttle are mandatory - where to sit I dunno because my concentration wasn't there enough for me to remember where I was - I only know that when focused I am WAY up on the tank so I'd assume I did the same then. But I can't help but remember feeling the rear slip out for which I think I should have been further up on tank so that the rear could just float underneath me. Again, just take it gently next time and see.
Again, thanks.

 

[Jeff Gilbert]

If your black slippery mud is anything like the black slippery mud we have here, your best bet is to stay home. Can't even walk in that stuff!

wannayz, are you wearing knee braces? If not, you are wearing knee pads aren't you???

I was taught that the only time to take a foot off the peg was when weighting the front wheel. Don't try to use your feet to break a fall, you'll end up hyperextending or tweaking your knee.

 

[wannayz]

Yes I'm wearing Rx braces and I'm quite nervous about hyperextending in such a situation (and braces probably won't help much if at all). I got to try the superficial mud thing again and I still wanted to go down so I'm real confused. But one person at the track, not watching me , said that I should not sit so far forward (I am against the gas cap). It might make sense because with my 200lbs. on the front wheel and with the bike leaned a bit, there really is NO traction on the rear wheel. I watched MANY riders and no one seems THAT forward though there are many different styles. ANd i rode a lot in mud last year with no problem and then I wasn't so forward because I didn't know to be in that position when cornering. He said to sit way forward only when I need to track the front tightly like in ruts, otherwise stay centered.
Any more advice is still appereciated. I might try private lessons if I can fine.

 

[RM_guy]

Body position and traction go hand in hand so keep moving around the bike until it hooks up the best. Since the traction conditions can change throughout the turn you have to constantly adjust your position. In most cases just leaning forward or backward will change the weight bias enough but finding that nominal position is important.

Your friend is right though. To much weight up front will make the back end break loose. Weighting the front end is to give the front wheel traction but in a muddy situation, or any time you are power sliding around a turn, you need to put more weight on the back.

 

[wannayz]

DING!!!!!!! Lightbulb just went off!! Thanks to all who responded - I think I can lay this to rest and get off the web.
I think that weighting too far front so the rear was set-up to slide COMBINED with probably NOT weighting the outside peg (a known bad habit of mine) was a setup for disaster - center of gravity too far inside ->the slide, and down I went. Maybe sitting up front ain't so bad if I WANT to slide the rear but I'd have to get the CG more over the tire, not the inside of the turn. So next time, I'll sit or at least lean back a few more inches AND WEIGHT THE OUTER PEG and I'll bet I'll have the problem licked. Falling isn't fun but not being able to correct it is REALLY frustrating.

 

[High Lord Gomer]

Wannayz: Try Ike at http://2020racingacademy.com . He's based in the Carolinas but frequently travels up to Canada to teach. Maybe you could get him to spend a day on his way one trip.

Better yet...come to DirtWeek and get 3 lessons free!