My personal opinion is that the 250 4t is much closer to the 250 2t than it is to a 144. Also the 4's are much earlier in their development and my guess is they will be more than equal very soon if not already. I know several racers that are much faster on the 250F's than they ever were on anything else out there. Watching Josh Grant at the MCI or Villopoto at the MXDN shows just how close these things are to the 450's and we all know even Bubba couldn't compete on that 250 2t against the mighty 450's, you just had to ask him. ;)
AMA Board votes down "Class Displacement"
- Thread starter lwsmithjr
- Start date
And even with the rule change to a 144 limit how many top am's who have the ability to own multiple bikes and ride whatever they are faster on switched back to the 144 last year? Pretty much no one because they still didn't have a chance.
wardy
2005 Lori Nyland Award Winner
- Nov 12, 1999
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all i can say is this isn't over by a long shot. the communication we have had with other people (districts) is staggering. that is something that never has happened before. Once we get to congress in 07, I would bet there will be alot of looking at this and some kind of resolution. AMA can't afford not to. We are supposed to be out here generating "reasons" for people to want to join. NOt excluding them by saying they need to spend more money.
just a no nothing opinion i have LOL>/.,.
just a no nothing opinion i have LOL>/.,.
HajiWasAPunk
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Chili said:
I always assumed that they made the rule change not for the top am's who can probably afford to ride whatever they want (sponsorships etc) but for the more average rider who didn't want to/couldn't afford to spend 6 grand on a new thumper?
I still say the difference is in the slower riders who need help using the power. The require less clutch use, and birng the power on better. This seems like progress to me?
As far as the maintenance and money goes, other than the initial bike cost difference, I've spent more money on my son's 85 than I have on my 250F with us both racing and riding the same hours. If you're serious about racing and practicing you're going to spend ~$500 a month or more for 2 riders (gas, maintenance, gate fees, class/lessons etc).
HajiWasAPunk said:
Or it seems like making it too easy to go fast and you have inexperienced riders wadding themselves into oblivion. And if the benefit was only to these slower riders why is the 2 stroke now extinct in Pro MX racing?
HajiWasAPunk
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Chili said:
Sorry, I meant to say, "biggest" difference is in the slower riders. It's still a difference and if there's even a fraction of a second you know the pros will take it, especially in the take off.
You really see a noticeable difference in crashes or severity of crashes due to 4 strokes? I can only go on my experience but I didn't crash any more (or less :laugh: ) when I switched? I think with either bike you have to use good judgement about what you're attempting.
Good judgement is not a common trait among the teenaged riders of today These are the people that are going from the 85's to the 250F's. They are also the people that are currently looking for their first bike now that they have a job and their parents have no say in the matter. :debil:HajiWasAPunk said:
HajiWasAPunk said:
That's a hard one to answer for me, my kid has managed to wad himself into oblivion on a 2 stroke :pissed: However I do feel it is way easier for less experienced riders to go fast on a 250F and possibly put themselves in over their head.
Thank you, Wardy, for that perspective. I am very happy to hear that this is not finished at the district level. This is a MEMBER owned organization. I have been very concerned ever since Patty DiPietro has stepped in and taken over control of OUR organization! Who is she and where did she come from?wardy said:
- Aug 2, 2000
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Johnny O'Mara managed to beat Dave Thorpe and every other 500 two-stroke back in '86 (except Bailey). I think he could have beaten 250 four-strokes too . . . ;)Chili said:
- Aug 7, 2006
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FruDaddy said:
thats spells out a couple of my friends :whoa: . not me, 80:125:250F( well, im getting a 250F)
Nothing personal, but at your age you don't know how poor you judgement is. Your friends think they exercise good judgement. When I was your age, I though I had good judgement, it's probably a good thing that I didn't ride dirt bikes back then. The 125 has probably protected you from your bad judgement on many occasions, as well as allowing you to develop better skills to handle future errors.
There & Back
Simple stuff, when looking at C and mid B class riders most the time it's rider skill that wins (exclusion the sandbaggers). My son and I have been their and back 125-250F-250TT-125 for all the reasons listed in this post... the 250F was banished for reliability/post purchase cost relationships and the 250TT did well against the 450F (outdoor MX). Broke out the 125 (stock) at the end of the season and did extremely well against the 250F on a tight technical track although on the few open areas the F's did pull which was closed in the turn/jump sections. So to this end, February 2007 will come, Loretta's around the corner so what do you do??? You scrub the AX Series thus you don't have to write the check to the AMA, run outlaw tracks, sandbag the 250F (in class), become a NMA member and simply put take your money elsewhere. Loss of income hurts everyone, manufacuter, track owner, AMA, etc., we do have an option to being heard and that would be change in membership e.g., NMA opposed the AMA. The monies saved avoiding the AX series will go to travel the NMA circuit. I suspect maybe this is what the AMA really wants... get rid of the D/C/B class riders.
Simple stuff, when looking at C and mid B class riders most the time it's rider skill that wins (exclusion the sandbaggers). My son and I have been their and back 125-250F-250TT-125 for all the reasons listed in this post... the 250F was banished for reliability/post purchase cost relationships and the 250TT did well against the 450F (outdoor MX). Broke out the 125 (stock) at the end of the season and did extremely well against the 250F on a tight technical track although on the few open areas the F's did pull which was closed in the turn/jump sections. So to this end, February 2007 will come, Loretta's around the corner so what do you do??? You scrub the AX Series thus you don't have to write the check to the AMA, run outlaw tracks, sandbag the 250F (in class), become a NMA member and simply put take your money elsewhere. Loss of income hurts everyone, manufacuter, track owner, AMA, etc., we do have an option to being heard and that would be change in membership e.g., NMA opposed the AMA. The monies saved avoiding the AX series will go to travel the NMA circuit. I suspect maybe this is what the AMA really wants... get rid of the D/C/B class riders.
HajiWasAPunk
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FruDaddy said:
FruDaddy, I'm with you that typically one's judgement no matter how good or bad improves with age. But I just don't buy that the extra bit of power on the 250F (over a 125)saves a 15 year old from getting hurt (see Chilli's post above). If you're winging it the 125 provides all the ammunition you need.
I don't think it's the power as much as the ease of riding it fast. Coming out of a corner, it is easier to get up to speed for a big jump that the rider may not be ready to land. I will concede, however, that one might still try to make it on a 125, and come up short, because poor judgement does not understand mechanical ability.
wardy
2005 Lori Nyland Award Winner
- Nov 12, 1999
- 2,681
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Well I thought so to. But maybe as much as we "think" we matter we really don't. I personally think today that we had much more input in the past, but who knows it's more a shell game then anything. I have seen some improvements, but listening to congress isn't one of them. As far as Dipietro is concerned, I have never met her personally, we have talked on the phone over the pro am issues, which at this point look to be on the way to vast improvements. She of course has been around ama for along time and was thrown into a huge mess with pro. The new guy comes in and we will see what happens there. But then the pro am deal took better part of ten years to convince people it would work now we will see.
The class structure deal will end up being over before it starts, what will happen if we set back and let this go on is that our sport will not improve or increase, but may do what it did in the middle 80's. of course this is just my opinion.
- Aug 7, 2006
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oh dont worry FruDaddy and Haji, im winging it! being on a 125 has taught me a lot more about dirt bikes than i know what to do with, LOL!
hellbertos
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- Feb 17, 2004
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XRpredator said:
One of the few times I could agree w/ XRpred... Absolutely. Just the same as Bubba did on his KX125 against the 250F onslaught when he was still in the class.
The thing is, to me anyways, that an exceptional talent like Johnny O or Bubba is competitive on a 125 against 250f (or 500 2Ts for that matter). but most guys, even top 10 factory talent, can't over come the 250F displacement advantage. Look at Brett Metcalf on the YZ125; struggled to get to the top 10. Put him on a 250F and he has a break out year getting podiums and earning a ride at Pro Circuit. I'd guess that if most any of the guys in the field right now were put on 125's against 250Fs, they would not be able to compete for the top spot.
Personally I think it is a shame what has happened and I believe the AMA brain trust has damaged the sport forever... and that isn't a knock on 4Ts. It is more of a knock on the idea that the machines were equal in power... not to mention cost for the vast array of amatures and their budgets... and would be a legitimate replacement for the 125. Brings up a question I have for any of you guys who know about the AMA: What are the technical capabilities of the AMA Board members? And, do they actually seek out independent advice from the Eric Gorrs, Mitch Paytons and Donnie Elmers of the MX world?? (not to mention the many, many technical minds out there in the Off Road world whom I wouldn't know how to refer to)
Many thanks to everyone posting here (I've learned a ton); particularly Eric Gorr and his extremely informative posts. Of particular interest to me was the idea that the factory bikes are pumping out that much more power w/ lighter engine components as well as the F1 technology which is begining to trickle into the 4T motors. I believe we are only now begining to see what the modern 4T MX motors are capable of and merely scratching the surface of what these things will cost to buy and operate in the not distant future.
I'll keep my 2T, thanks...
- Aug 2, 2000
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hey now, I'm an agreeable sorthellbertos said:
Eric Gorr
Engine Builder
- Jun 29, 1999
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Regarding the claim that the AMA consulted experts on the displacement rule, I invented the 144 in 1976, I'm Wiseco's biggest and oldest piston buyer, and US Chrome biggest aftermarket vendor. Nobody from the AMA called me for a technical consultation but the FIM did when they made 144s legal for the MX2 class and European Championships.
Maybe they're still angry with me when I wrote an editorial in the RacerX newspaper in 1993 when they tried to kill the open class. It was the first time anyone ever criticized the AMA in the press. The paper came out at Steel City and Roy Janson was looking for me all day but he didn't know what I looked like. I pulled a joke on him, I saw this giant gritty looking guy standing next to the fence and I walked up to Roy and said "are you looking for Eric Gorr? well he's standing right over there!".
Maybe they're still angry with me when I wrote an editorial in the RacerX newspaper in 1993 when they tried to kill the open class. It was the first time anyone ever criticized the AMA in the press. The paper came out at Steel City and Roy Janson was looking for me all day but he didn't know what I looked like. I pulled a joke on him, I saw this giant gritty looking guy standing next to the fence and I walked up to Roy and said "are you looking for Eric Gorr? well he's standing right over there!".
- Aug 2, 2000
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I remember that day. Glad I could be of help.Eric Gorr said:
;)
- Aug 7, 2006
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Chili said:
+1
PC and FMF 2T full exhaust: $320
PC 4T full exhaust system
FMF 4T full exhaust system: $900
hellbertos
Member
- Feb 17, 2004
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XRpredator said:
Heh... yeah, agreeable w/ anything 4stroke... but, hey, its a free country...
Its all in fun...