Any LEO/SpecOp types here? Question.

[BSWIFT]

1. Police departments across the counry advise citizens to take cover and NOT confront shoplifters, armed robbers, or carjackers. Life over property! That includes wanna be's working security! If your CLEAT certified, you can carry any firearm your company allows, Glock, Thompson, AK-47 with full banana clips!
2. At least in Oklahoma, the use of deadly force (discharge of a firearm) is only legal if the shots are fired at you on your property IN YOUR HOME. Exception: Persons that have concealled carry permits can use deadly force (discharge a firearm) on an attacker if the attacker is armed with a firearm, not a knife or club.
3. Of the LEO's that I know, one of whom is a S.W.A.T. officer, the department supplies everything he needs. Most of his off duty time he wears a cowboy hat (for real).
4. If I go anywhere, mall, hocky game, OU vs. OSU, and there are LEO's wearing full riot gear, I'm goin' back home to watch the highlights on TV!
5. With the new "Mall Cop" movie and the Steven Segal marathon coming up, why ask a bunch of dirtbikers about body armor, hell I just wear a Thor flak jak and a full face MX hellmet. This time of year, I'm more worried about liquored up hunters than a disgruntled retail shopper!

 

[James]

2. At least in Oklahoma, the use of deadly force (discharge of a firearm) is only legal if the shots are fired at you on your property IN YOUR HOME. Exception: Persons that have concealled carry permits can use deadly force (discharge a firearm) on an attacker if the attacker is armed with a firearm, not a knife or club.

Amazingly stupid laws.

 

[BadgerMan]

The body armor conceals well under the white shirt......where's the briefcase?

 

[YamaB]

2. At least in Oklahoma, the use of deadly force (discharge of a firearm) is only legal if the shots are fired at you on your property IN YOUR HOME. Exception: Persons that have concealled carry permits can use deadly force (discharge a firearm) on an attacker if the attacker is armed with a firearm, not a knife or club.

I know this isn't a serious thread... but I have a lot of trouble believing a state known for having very loose gun laws would be this strict when it comes to self defense shootings... especially in the home...

In general, you can legally shoot an attacker if you have "reasonable" belief that he is a threat to your life and/or physical well being, and you had no "reasonable" alternative... If it is at all "iffy", then it might be up to a jury to decide... Inside your own home, the law tends to be even more lax. In most states with a "castle law", the simple act of someone breaking into your home provides all the "reasonable" threat you need to justify a deadly shooting...

 

[Okiewan]

Exception: Persons that have concealled carry permits can use deadly force (discharge a firearm) on an attacker if the attacker is armed with a firearm, not a knife or club.

Pretty sure that's not the case Brian, at least with the case law I've been able to find . If a knife is not considered a deadly weapon in OK, there's a issue right there. I'll do some more digging.

 

[BadgerMan]

Our laws are a little more vague here in Michigan but our "duty to retreat" law was removed in 2006.....even signed by our very liberal shining star of a governor. Following is an interpretation of the intent of the law:

a law-abiding person who is attacked in any place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat, and can “stand his or her ground” and meet force with force, including deadly force if necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm

 

[oldguy]

Pretty sure that's not the case Brian, at least with the case law I've been able to find . If a knife is not considered a deadly weapon in OK, there's a issue right there. I'll do some more digging.

To be 100% honest I would rather have the attacker use a firearm then a knife. With a gun he has to get it into position and then obtain a target. Unless he is a highly trained and focused person it is easier to cause him to miss by evasive tactics whereas once he is within 20 feet with a knife unless you are drawn and aimed at him chances are you are going to be a victim. Sounds hard to believe but every training session we drilled with the 20 foot attack and rarely did the officer draw his weapon, fire, and hit the attacker, even then it was usually a hit that would not stop the attack.
What they were trying to train was you were better off leaving your weapon holstered (going against everything you were trained) and taking evasive action to get away or divert the attack then once away draw and fire.

 

[James]

Sounds hard to believe but every training session we drilled with the 20 foot attack and rarely did the officer draw his weapon, fire, and hit the attacker, even then it was usually a hit that would not stop the attack.

Did you guys do this test with paintball/simunition guns?

 

[oldguy]

Did you guys do this test with paintball/simunition guns?

Simunition. We had the kits to convert our personal duty carry guns to fire the soap rounds so you were always familiar with the equipment

 

[Uchytil]

Simunition sucks hard. We got pelted by that stuff at Blackwater. I think this thread is hilarious! It sure beats the frigid temps & snow we are getting in MI right now. Aside from our "no jobs" situation it's nice and quiet here in the country.

 

[BSWIFT]

Pretty sure that's not the case Brian, at least with the case law I've been able to find . If a knife is not considered a deadly weapon in OK, there's a issue right there. I'll do some more digging.

Recently, in Tulsa, a man was threatened to the point he felt he was in immediate danger of death. He drew his concealed firearm, warned the attacker 3 times(reported by witnesses), then shot and killed the attacker. http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?s=8677731
Most people, like myself, thought it was justifiable and no charges would be filed. The man was later arrested, charged, and pleaded out because the "victim" was unarmed, twice his size and half his age. I'm outraged by the ruling of the DA but it's done. On appeal mind you but done none the less.
Making statements that you feel you were in fear for your life are easy to make but they must be proved. The prosecutor stated that the "now convicted felon" had other options than to use deadly force. There are many reasons for fleeing the scene of an accident or crime, none of them are good or lawful but damn sure understandable when you are forced into a situation not of your choosing with no preconceived notion of putting your life at risk OR commiting a crime.
I have many friends in law enforcement, I respect the job that they do. The prosecutors on the otherhand are always politically motivated.
Okie, I too have read some case law, good stuff to put you to sleep.;) Unfortunately, the case law doesn't do a defendant any good until appeal after being convicted. Trials are all about evidence and testimony. The "make my day law" here in Oklahoma gives home owners the right to shoot and kill an intruder regardless if he is armed or not. It only applies within your house. All other shooting incidents require the immenant threat with the reasonable believe that the attacker will kill you. Stupid exception but so be it.
I've heard of the "fleeing felon law" where LEO cannot shoot a felon leaving the scene of a crime(not sure if this is correct) but Oklahoma law does allow a private citizen to shoot a fleeing felon provided they are on your property and have attempted to kill you. Quite a quadry of conflicting exceptions.

 

[BSWIFT]

Amazingly stupid laws.

Couldn't agree more!
BTW, Oklahoma is one of the easiest states to buy firearms. Provided you go to a "Gun Show". If you go to the same dealer at his retail location, you have to fill out all of the required paperwork, 3 day wating period on hand guns, and other BS obligations. The "Gun Shows" are buy, sell, trade on the spot with only assault rifles required to have background checks (done on the spot)(i think they look behind you ;) ). The buzz is that will soon end with pending legislation and the upcoming 111th Congress and new President. Gun sales are fast and furious here.
http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?s=9318999

 

[BSWIFT]

I think my brother-in-law is Kevin James' stand in for the really non physical stunts!

 

[Okiewan]

Add another positive reason for moving to Texas. Concealed carry permits here allow us to defend ourselves. What a concept. It goes much farther than that as well ... stop a felony in process, rape, etc, WITHOUT the fear of civil action after the fact (assuming the action is found to be legal).

BTW, the 2006 "Make My Day" law in Oklahoma extended the right to vehicles as well as the home.

Per the story posted, the guy got 5 years probation (no jail, no doubt the charges expunged after that) and the judge himself said had the guy not entered the plea, he likely would have been acquitted. Assuming he believed his life was in danger and he HAD to shoot to protect himself, I'd bet he'd do it all over again.

Attitudes are changing about law abiding citizens being allowed to protect themselves. Most of us realize the government aint gonna do it and the police? God love 'em, but the vast majority of the time, they aren't going to be there when the bad guy mugs you or when a woman is being raped, etc.

If someone comes at me with a knife in OK, I'll have to take my chances in court.

I'll also add that a background check takes about 10 minutes by phone, states that require 3 days to pick-up the hand gun are using a "cool down period".

To get a carry license here, you are background checked BIG time, full sets of prints not only to the State but also to the FBI. Time to process is running about 90-120 days. I think they might even check to see if mom has a record :) DUI's (DWI), known alcohol/drug issues, back taxes, defaulted student loans, child support.... the list beyond just convictions is long.

 

[Okiewan]

Couple bits from the Texas penal code...specifically about concealed carry:

deadly force protecting one's self:
person reasonably believes its necessary to protect their lives.
to prevent the others imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, aggravated sexual assault, robbery or aggravated robbery

You can bet, a thug with a knife is justifiable in Texas.

Applies to any of those happening to a third party as well.

 

[BSWIFT]

Attitudes are changing about law abiding citizens being allowed to protect themselves. Most of us realize the government aint gonna do it and the police? God love 'em, but the vast majority of the time, they aren't going to be there when the bad guy mugs you or when a woman is being raped, etc.

Agreed.
I personally think everyone should be required to be armed, "ala the old west". :joke:
Firearm ownership and carry permits have not been a big issue to me until recent years. But as the second story link suggests, people are quite afraid of the possible actions of Congress and the President. Now that I've been to a gun show, saw the people there, learn that they are all armed to the teeth, some dirtbike goodies will just have to wait.
The laws governing firearms and concealed carry permits very greatly and there is a list of states that recognize lawful permits from other states but it is not nation wide.
http:www.ok.gov/osbi/Concealed_Weapons_licensing/reciprocity/index.html

 

[BadgerMan]

The laws governing firearms and concealed carry permits very greatly and there is a list of states that recognize lawful permits from other states but it is not nation wide.
http:www.ok.gov/osbi/Concealed_Weapons_licensing/reciprocity/index.html

Try this one:

http://www.handgunlaw.us/

:cool:

 

[James]

Couldn't agree more!
BTW, Oklahoma is one of the easiest states to buy firearms. Provided you go to a "Gun Show". If you go to the same dealer at his retail location, you have to fill out all of the required paperwork, 3 day wating period on hand guns, and other BS obligations. The "Gun Shows" are buy, sell, trade on the spot with only assault rifles required to have background checks (done on the spot)(i think they look behind you ;) ). The buzz is that will soon end with pending legislation and the upcoming 111th Congress and new President. Gun sales are fast and furious here.
http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?s=9318999

All ffl dealers are required to do NCIC checks on handgun purchases unless the state has a permit provision that satisfies this requirement in another matter. Some states (sounds like OK) modify their waiting periods to accomodate gun shows since the dealer wont be there 3 days later...I am not familiar with anything that relieves them of the NCIC check and pretty sure there is no "gunshow loophole". I have seen private individuals rent a table at the gunshow and do "personal sales"...clever gray area but not illegal in many states. Private sales may not be regulated in OK but if licensed dealers are selling without NCIC, thats an enforcement issue. If "assault rifles" are required to have a background check, that is an OK law, not federal...unless by "assault rifle" you mean class III weapons (fully auto) which do have additional rules.

 

[jrf4x4]

Okie i know you heard of Joe Horn he shot two guys breaking in his neighbors house

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLtKCC7z0yc&feature=related

 

[Okiewan]

"assault rifle"

One of my favorite media generated terms.

Tell you what. Get shot by a .22 rifle and tell me you weren't assaulted :p

 

[XRpredator]

One of my favorite media generated terms.

I have an assault stick, an assault fist, and an assault boot even.

 

[BSWIFT]

All ffl dealers are required to do NCIC checks on handgun purchases unless the state has a permit provision that satisfies this requirement in another matter. Some states (sounds like OK) modify their waiting periods to accomodate gun shows since the dealer wont be there 3 days later...I am not familiar with anything that relieves them of the NCIC check and pretty sure there is no "gunshow loophole". I have seen private individuals rent a table at the gunshow and do "personal sales"...clever gray area but not illegal in many states. Private sales may not be regulated in OK but if licensed dealers are selling without NCIC, thats an enforcement issue. If "assault rifles" are required to have a background check, that is an OK law, not federal...unless by "assault rifle" you mean class III weapons (fully auto) which do have additional rules.

You are right. The loop holes exist currently in Oklahoma. Simply, if the assault rifle is used, it can be sold at the show without the associated NCIC paperwork. New assault rifle sales would have to follow all of the rules you stated. There is a big push to shut down the gun shows in Oklahoma because of the loop holes that exist which is why sales of firearms are up a minimum of 10%. One local dealer says his traffic in his story is 4 times greater than anytime in 29 years with sales nearly 60% higher than anytime in their history.
Gun safe sales are also rising. I deliver safes and I got this sales/traffic information from the dealer I was delivering the safe for. This job was what sparked my interest in this subject. I don't hunt and have no problem with those that do. I want home protection which is what I currently have. I would like to own a number of different types of firearms and with the push by some to tighten the laws in this state, I really want to acquire my wish list before it becomes tougher or impossible to acquire them legally and at reasonable prices.
Consequently, burglaries are up quite abit and a home a mile from me was hit and lost around 14 guns, some antique collectibles.

 

[James]

One of my favorite media generated terms.

Tell you what. Get shot by a .22 rifle and tell me you weren't assaulted :p

"loophole" being another of my favorites if you can't tell.

To US congress, loophole=something they haven't found a way to assert power over, whether or not they are entitled to said power.

I am shocked that OK regualtes "assault weapons" in such a manner. CA = no brainer but wow.

 

[Okiewan]

Brian; know where I can find Oklahoma's definition of "assault rifle" ?

 

[BadgerMan]

I have an assault stick

:whoa: