Bikes

[David Trustrum]

Fair comment,
thought I’d get a bite from that. It was the speed that it took was the shocking bit.

 

[wayneg]

I think that the only real problem is that the FIM is pushing this too hard. The manufacturers, especially the smaller ones, must be resisting the move to four strokes. I think that the move will hurt the smaller manufacturers badly because of the costs for research and design needed to get a four stroke to be competitive with the current two strokes. There will need to be a lot of work done to get a competitve bike that is light enough, and reliable enough to compete in the World Trials Champs. Sure the companies such as Montesa with their Honda motor and Scorpa with the Yamaha, and even Beta possibly with Suzuki motors will have the advantage over Gas Gas and Sherco, and may well be able to work out a deal for a trials four stroke motor developed straight from Japan. But there still will be major development costs and it will hit us in the end with much more expensive bikes. A TYZ Yamaha new in '93 cost NZ$18,000, (which meant that there are hardly any about over here) if you compare that to say a '94 Gas Gas of the same time at less than $7,000, the Yamaha doesn't look like such a good deal!! This could be what the whole four stroke debacle does for us!!

People everywhere are already bashing Gas Gas for having problems with their Pro model, and as the bike is a technical leap forward it is difficult for them to get the bike right first time out as they don't have millions to spend on development. The cost of developing something better has to be balanced against how much profit the company will make - which won't be that much because of the small market for these bikes (especially if everyone thinks that a particular model is a lemon and unreliable). We only have to look at the bikes from Cannondale and the speed it is taking them to get their bike to an acceptable level of reliability and performance. Montesa is still using the same design from '97, and it is the development costs that mean they don't make huge motor or frame changes to improve on their original design.

Because the trials manufacturers are very small operations, and there probably isn't that much profit in producing the bikes, this may well put some of them out of business, or make them concentrate on more profitable models, such as enduro or scooters. I personally like the ability to choose between more than two or three brands of trials bike, and I am disapointed that the move to four strokes seems to be purely a political gesture driven by the FIM to appease the greens in europe, and which won't really improve the quality of the atmosphere in europe anyway.

You can remove the soap box now!! Sorry for the rant....

 

[TexKDX]

Wayneg,

Thanks for the insight on the subject. Your points about timeframes and development costs on the 4 strokes is the big issue facing the manufacturers for sure. I'd give the nod to Honda (aka Montesa) as far as early product development being good. As the '02 Cota reflects, they are getting as much as they can out of their current sunk costs in the 2 stoke bike with minor tweaks. Getting Verlicci to tool up for a new complete frame is no cheap task, but making little tweaks like head tube angle is not a problem so it appears.

As far as gasgas goes, I could be more emphathetic of their little guy vs. the giants position in the industry if they would just be more honest. They consistently over sell and under deliver, and in some cases flat out lie. Take for example the forks on the current bikes - they have Showa legs but the internals are home built. They aren't exactly forthcoming with that type of information. How about that 4 stroke dirt bike that was to be out in September of '99 (says so in the brocure they printed up in '98)? We still have not seen it in a production bike.

With the magnitude of this 4 stroke event and its timeframes, it is a shame the european manufacturers cannot pool development resources when it comes to the engine and then separately develop the chassis in competition with each other. That would seem like an ideal situation, at least for the first generation of the bikes.

We could also be making more of a deal of this than it really is. For the amateur riders this probably won't be that big a deal. Weight ultimately limits the height you can jump the bike using its suspension and your muscles, and this can easily be dealt with in the section layouts. This of course is an issue for the national and world guys, not us mortals. We will most likely see very little benefit or hinderance from the 4 stroke, or at least a pretty even trade. If we look to the current generation of racing 4 stroke offroad bikes as example then we'll be treated to more frequent oil changes, complicated filter changes, and valve adjustments. The flipside might be a smoother power delivery at lower RPMs; we'll have to wait and see.

As long as they don't rule our 2 stroke bikes illegal then I can get lots of riding out of the Monty. If my MAR is still kicking after 29 years then the 315 with its superior metallurgy and componentry should live longer than me!

 

[wayneg]

It will also be interesting to see how long the manufacturers will still keep producing the two strokes after the rules change. It would be hard for them to ban two strokes for club trials for a few years yet, and hopefully this means that the manufacturers will produce four strokes for the WTC and continue to produce the two strokes for everyone else for a few years, even if no further development goes into them.

I guess the flip side is that the manufacturers may well surprise us and come out with excellent bikes that are a genuine improvement on the current two strokes. It may be that if they have to go and develop new frames to go with the new motors, then they decide to really go for it with their designs, and push things forwards more than we (being pessimists) expect. Montesa/Honda are in a really good position to do this, and also the Scorpa/Yamaha, and possibly even Gas Gas - who knows? If a new generation four stroke trials bike has smoother low end power, then this may well make it easier for people to learn to ride trials, which is a really good benefit.

I was originally thinking of getting a brand new bike next year, so that it would last a while after they stop making the two strokes, but now after thinking about it a bit more, I think I'll hold off until my skills improve. I am currently riding a 200cc bike, and want to improve to a level where I have the skills and correct techniques to move up to a 250cc bike without the extra power affecting me too much (I have VERY poor throttle control!!!!). A friend moved up to a 280cc bike from a 230cc bike in 2001, and had trouble getting to terms with it, even though he has far more skill than I have. The new more powerful bike took him some months to master, and it is only recently where he has been to move forwards and start increasing his skills at a faster rate again. I started two years ago with an older bike which was running pretty inconsistantly, and this hindered me from improving my skills, it also had far too much power for me to learn to do things correctly.

 

[David Trustrum]

Hi Wayne. One issue is that some oil manufacturers are rumoured to drop out of 2-stroke oil production shortly. Seems inconceivable but with a shrinking market this may well start to happen.

How did the ride go last night? Bit gutted I missed it. Next time, hopefully with new bike.

 

[wayneg]

Gidday David, I didn't get to go last night either. My daughter had an allergic reaction late yesterday afternoon (shes allergic to nuts - which is a pain in the neck), so I had to stay at home. Never mind, maybe next time.

When do you think you'll get your new bike?? There is quite a good trial on the 3rd of Feb in Whiteman's Valley, and then the JRL Memorial roving trial on the 23rd and 24th. If you are going in the JRL then it would be good if you could do the one on the 3rd as a build up event. We'll go out and have another couple of rides in the Forestry before then anyway hopefully.

I did manage to go to the evening trial on sunday. It was set up on the hard side, but I surprised myself and did quite well for me.

 

[David Trustrum]

Yeah going to look at a 250Gasa this weekend. Will only buy it if it is ok. Should buy a 200, but $ hmm.

As for the JRL, no way! Even AT was toast afterward.

 

[Trialwench]

earlier there was talk in the thread about the bikes' weights. I have info on the bikes as independently weighed by 2 different Spanish Motorcycle Magazines that tested the bikes, and both of their weights were identical for all the bikes. The following weights are with full fuel tanks and all fluids, as verified by two Spanish magazines:
2002 Beta Rev 3 177.10 pounds (80.5Kg.)
2002 Montesa Cota 315 170.28 pounds (77.4 Kg.)
2002 Scorpa SY 250 167.64 pounds (76.2 Kg.)
2002 Sherco 2.5 164.34 pounds (74.7 Kg.)
2002 GasGas TXT280 pro 157.50 pounds (71.6 Kg.)

Laura Bussing

 

[wayneg]

Its nice to know that my Rev3 is 20 pounds heavier than the GasGas Pro!!
So thats why it hurts so much when it lands on me!!

 

[Patman]

What's really sad is I have 35 pounds on my bike!:ugg:

 

[wayneg]

Don't worry - you're probably very tall!!!;)

 

[Patman]

I'm just short for my height to weight ratio :confused:

 

[TexKDX]

Originally posted by wayneg
Its nice to know that my Rev3 is 20 pounds heavier than the GasGas Pro!!
So thats why it hurts so much when it lands on me!!

If you rip the front end of your Beta off at the head tube like they do on the GasGas Pro then they'll weigh about the same ;).

 

[wayneg]

I tried to rip the front end off on sunday - maybe its technique or something else I'm doing wrong. I did have some impressive crashes though, scored 8 out of ten for a near perfect endo. If I hadn't twisted a little in mid air I would have scored a 10!! Much laughter from other competitors.:confused:

As a side issue - how wide are your handlebars. Mine are stock standard Beta Rev3, and seem far too wide. I was just wondering if anyone out there cuts them down much. I think I'll probably cut about 1" off each end and see how it goes. The trees seemed to have been planted about 1" too narrow for me to fit through - munched my little fingers again!!

 

[David Trustrum]

originally posted by Wayne
scored 8 out of ten for a near perfect endo

Sorry I missed that the 1km walk put me off as it was bleeding hot. That & we rode Blue mountain rd & didn’t find the entrance. Did have a bit of speed on.

Yeah I noticed your bars are real wide. Weird huh? Just mover the levers etc in as far as you dare & go for a ride & see if you like it. Then hacksaw the rest off. Think of the weight saving!

 

[Girlrider]

Tex KDX,

You won't list your source but I will list mine. I read Dale Malasek (The US importer of the GG trials bike) your post. First he said that yes Adam did pull the head out several times. The reason being is he wanted to experiment with the angle of the forks so he did some modifying that was only experimental. (Not what is currently used on the 2002 that is being sold.) As for your comments on the Showa forks. I don't know where you got that infomation but if you read the specs on the GG website you will see that is says "Gas Gas Conventional Telescopic Forks". Last year when Adam was riding and even sometimes placing ahead of Lampkin he was on a "Prototype" bike which means it will have some flaws that need to be worked out. The kid is 19 and beating Lampkin on a Prototype bike means either he is awesome, the bike is awesome or it is a great combination. Adam even won the first round of indoor this year. As Laura Bussing (Who sells GG said) "the is NO flawless bike on the market, you just have to ride them and buy the one that feels the best to you."

 

[wayneg]

Please lets not get into brand bashing on this forum. It does get old pretty quickly, and I think just winds everyone up. Obviously you bought the brand of bike because you like it better than everything else - otherwise you would have sold it already and got the bike that you really wanted anyway.

I think that as was said before, that all the bikes are pretty good, but they do have their faults, and each brand does suit a particular type of rider better than the others. My Beta for instance has the airbox from hell, is way heavier than the other brands,and has flexible upside down forks, but it suits me just fine - I'm not perfect either!!! I think that its overall design (including the fact that it is only a 200) has let me become a better rider than my old '94 Techno, and I do get great support from my dealer. These are the most important things to me about my bike.

 

[Badgas]

Hey wayneg,

I was looking at my Far Side calendar and saw it is "Waitangi Day" in NZ. What's Waitangi day?

 

[wayneg]

It marks a public holiday when the Treaty of Waitangi (between Queen Victoria and the Maori chiefs of the time) was signed. It involves a ceremony and lots of protests from Maori activists who want Maori sovereignty.
It is usually a nice fine public holiday to go and sit on a beach somewhere - or to go riding. Unfortunately for me I had to dig some holes for a fence that I'm repairing - lots of hard work and not much relaxation.

 

[TexKDX]

Girlrider et al,

I hope I don't come across as a gasgas basher or any other brand basher for that matter. The previous comment was meant as tongue-in-cheek. The fact that you and your importer-friend get so defensive is rather humorous to me.

My observation/opinion about gasgas owners in general is that they are a very defensive group when it comes to their brand. Why I do not know. It reminds me of Chevy Avalanche owners. They decided to commit $37K on that transforming truck and feel the need to adimately defend that choice. This guy I know went on and on about how it does this, can do that, can do this chango and sleep in the back all covered up with lots of room, etc. - right before he drove to spend the nite in a hotel with the tailgate down because his trials bike won't fit in the back with it up. Go figure.

I don't think there is any debate over the fact that gasgas makes a decent motorcycle. At the level most of us ride it will do more than we will ever ask of it.

I can tell you this, the importer of Montesa (Martin Belaire, just spoke with him last week) does not have to defend the reliability, quality, serviceability, resale etc. of HIS product. Or answer a bunch of basic questions about the bike because it does come at least with a comprehensive owner's manual.

 

[JTT]

Hummmm, you Monty guys seem to sound remarkably like YZ guys :think :p

...can't believe I am actually adding fuel to this fire...please disregard the preceding comment :cool:

 

[Trialwench]

throughout the development of modern trials bikes, every different manufacturer has had to attempt to lay to rest reliability questions for the public. All the manufacturers have gone through different protype bikes in the past in the development of whatever current model they have.

One thing that's always quite interesting is that Prototype bikes and Production bikes are always quite different: they end up becoming a bit different than what they started out to be during the prototype-development stage.

Bike enthusiasts will always question what they hear and see. And those who care about what's being heard and seen will always attempt to address the subject. This is good, as it puts more information out there for everyone else to consider as well

 

[Patman]

Hummmm, you Monty guys seem to sound remarkably like YZ guys

Nah, more like KTM guys. :D

 

[TexKDX]

Originally posted by Patman

Nah, more like KTM guys. :D

Hey, I resemble BOTH of those remarks!!!! ;)

In reality, I could sound biased towards lots of bikes - some that I own, some that I've owned, and some that I'd like to own. I could also sound anti-brandX when pointing out the shortcomings I discoverd on a bike I owned. I guess it's all in your sensitivity towards this issue.

Let's face it folks, it's hard to get a BAD motorcycle these days. They're all pretty much great bikes with minute differences within the market segments/usage they are intended for.

 

[David Trustrum]

Back to the original scope of the thread;

As of Saturday

‘00 GG 200