C&J Framed XR500

[WRFjockey]

Has anyone here built one of these up from the kits available from Red Racer??

If so I would like to email you to find out about any issues, and what parts you used, as well as seeing some piccies of your bike.

Please email me C&JXR500@adavidson.mailshell.com

 

[Ol'89r]

Has anyone here built one of these up from the kits available from Red Racer??

WRFjockey.

Never used the Red Racer kits but, built a lot of C&J framed XR and XL bikes. Both 350 and 500. Worked at one time at Long Beach Honda Racing. We built the bikes that the late Al Baker was so successful on at Baja and many off road races.

I may be able to answer some of your questions. PM or e-mail me or just post them here.

I will try to post a photo of my C&J XL350/410. That was a great bike. :cool:

Ol'89r

 

[Rich Rohrich]

I will try to post a photo of my C&J XL350/410.

:yeehaw:

 

[Oregon Trail]

I picked up a C&J XL350 about 1 1/2 ago from a lady in Phoenix that said her husband used to race in the desert in the mid to late 70's. It had a decal on it that said 'Built by Eddie Crowell' or something like that. It was a complete project bike, but I already had an aftermarket framed XL350 so I traded it away. A buddy of mine who's dad is Neil Fergus remebers him as a bike builder back then.Here's a link to his D-37 Vintage page at the G-N-G site.

 

[WRFjockey]

thanks for the reply ol89r

Unfortunately I think the first question I have may relate soley to the RR kit, as I'm not really sure how faithful a copy it is.

Anyway the question is:
The swingarm mounts to the frame by way of a swingarm pivot shaft, however on the kit I have received the pivot shaft is about 6mm (roughly 1/4" in your language!) longer than the width of the swingarm, ie it protrudes out the side.
Is there some type of spacer, or Cap required to shim this?... or what stops the swingarm from moving sideways on the pivot shaft?

Any input would be appreciated.
Thanx

 

[Ol'89r]

the pivot shaft is about 6mm (roughly 1/4" in your language!) longer than the width of the swingarm, ie it protrudes out the side.
Is there some type of spacer, or Cap required to shim this?... or what stops the swingarm from moving sideways on the pivot shaft?

jocky.

As I said, I'm not familiar with the RR kit but, it seems there should be a thrust bushing on either side of the swingarm. Is there any slop between the frame and the pivot shaft?

If your frame did not come with these bushings, you may have to have them made. The thrust washers / bushings, should be wide enough to take up most of the slop but, not so wide as to bind the swingarm when the pivot bolt is tightened. The idea is for the pivot shaft to be tight against the frame while letting the swingarm move freely up and down, but not side to side.

Oregon Trail.

I believe Eddie Crowell still has a shop in the South Bay area of LA. Awesome photos, :cool: thanks for the link.

Rich.

Carlo is going to post the photos for me. For some reason I cant seem to post photos on DRN and I'm too much of a puter idiot to figure it out. :bang:

Ol'89r

 

[Ol'89r]

Rocketman_pilot. C&J forks.

Rocketman_pilot.

I tried to answer your e-mail about the forks, but it was returned, unsent. :ohmy:

Anyway, most C&J frames built for Honda engines use CR250 forks, wheels and plastic. Very few of these frames are exactly alike. Most all have little changes from one to another.

If your '79 frame uses the standard Timken type head bearings, then most any Honda CR fork assembly will work. Be sure to use the entire assembly, forks and triple clamps. Using different parts from different years and models can change the intended rake and trail and cause handling problems. (Headshake, tankslappers. pushing, etc.)

The '88 CR250 fork assy is a good choice. The forks are very easy to tune for whatever type of riding you want to do and they use a disc brake. I have an '88 CR250 front end on my '83 XR350 and it works great for trail riding. You can also use the CR500 fork assy. I would stay with the pre '90's conventional forks if I were you. The early upside down forks were very harsh.

Hope this helps. :cool:

Ol'89r

 

[WRFjockey]

jocky.

Is there any slop between the frame and the pivot shaft?

If your frame did not come with these bushings, you may have to have them made. The thrust washers / bushings, should be wide enough to take up most of the slop but, not so wide as to bind the swingarm when the pivot bolt is tightened. The idea is for the pivot shaft to be tight against the frame while letting the swingarm move freely up and down, but not side to side.

Ol'89r

Thanks again for the reply ol89r

The pivot shaft is a very tight fit into the frame.

I guess either nylon, or bronze bushes will be required, to stop the swingarm moving sideways, I guess it will be a matter of trial and error to find what thickness the bushings need to be to prevent the swingarm from binding.

.. I guess if this was easy that everyone would do it!

thanks
again

 

[Ol'89r]

Thanks again for the reply ol89r

The pivot shaft is a very tight fit into the frame.

I guess either nylon, or bronze bushes will be required, to stop the swingarm moving sideways, I guess it will be a matter of trial and error to find what thickness the bushings need to be to prevent the swingarm from binding.

WRFjockey.

If the pivot shaft is tight between the frame when you tighten the pivot bolt, then all you have to do is find or make a couple bronze bushings that fit over the pivot shaft and allow the pivot shaft to stick out past the bushing about .010 on each side. This will give you a total of .020 side clearance on the swingarm.

If you want to get fancy and have access to a lathe, you could cut a o-ring groove on the inside of the bushings to help keep water and dirt out and grease in. The o-ring will also take up the .020 slop.

Nylon may not be the way to go since is will wear quicker than bronze. If you have an industrial hardware store near you, they might have ready made bronze washers that are a fairly close fit.

Good luck.

 

[WRFjockey]

Ol89r, I have another question.

Are you running a std XR500 motor, or is yours been bored/stroked?

If its standard, what carb, and jetting do you have?


Thanx

 

[bsmith]

I might have a Cobra Exhuast for an 83 XR500 if it could be of use?

 

[Ol'89r]

Ol89r, I have another question.

Are you running a std XR500 motor, or is yours been bored/stroked?

If its standard, what carb, and jetting do you have?


Thanx

WRFjockey.

I used a XL350 side sucker motor for my C&J. I bored it to 410cc and used a Venolia piston. Also used a Mikuni carb.

On the 500's that we built, we also used the Mikuni carbs. Can't remember the jetting and I don't have my notes anymore for the 500's. Sorry.

I sent my photos to Rich to post.

Ol'89r

 

[eric318]

Hello, I am rebuilding a XR500 from a naked C&J frame. Here is where I am at the moment (cant insert image or link... ??).

Right now I am wondering how to fix the CR250 fuel tank. For the front it is very straight forward, but the rear looks puzzling:

Any pointers ?

Thanks

 

[Ol'89r]

Right now I am wondering how to fix the CR250 fuel tank. For the front it is very straight forward, but the rear looks puzzling:
Any pointers ?
Thanks

The rear tank mount should be stock. It should use the stock CR250 tank mount bolt with a shoulder on it. There should be a threaded boss welded on the frame for the rear tank mount to bolt to.

Pictures would be nice. ;)

 

[eric318]

The rear tank mount should be stock. It should use the stock CR250 tank mount bolt with a shoulder on it. There should be a threaded boss welded on the frame for the rear tank mount to bolt to.

Pictures would be nice. ;)

Thanks for this! I see no threaded boss on the frame... Hmmm...

For pics, they are all in a Picasa album that this board does not allow me to link to. Can someone help me to upload the link? There are dozens of photos in there.

You will see the rear tank no-mount. From that pic your can navigate up and down the album. Note that quite a few of the parts on the bike at the moment (like the rear wheel and brake) are there just so I can roll it for the moment. Still need a lot of parts.

 

[eric318]

Here is the bike as of this week end (but I cant reduce all the hi-res pics to such a small size, I am going to spend the whole day... :whoa: and you cant see much)

 

[Ol'89r]

Looks like you have the wrong tank for the frame. You will have to have a tab tig-welded on to your frame to accommodate the tank mount. You just need a flat tab for the rear mount to sit on with a rubber pad in between. There should be a pin underneath for the rubber tank strap to attach to.

Make sure you have it tig-welded by someone that understands how to weld 4130 chrome moly. That is what the C&J frame is made from and if it is welded incorrectly it will make the welded area brittle.

 

[eric318]

Ouch, I spent so much time looking for exactly that CR250 79 tank thinking it was the one. Which one should it be then? May be I should be looking for the right tank instead of messing with welding a perfect frame, no?

 

[Ol'89r]

The frame is probably set up for the 500 tank. They are taller and shorter than the CR250 tank. Or, just have a 1/8" thick, 4130 flat tab tig-welded on to the end of the backbone tube to support the 250 tank. It's not that big of a deal as long as you have an experienced tig-welder do it.

If it were mine, I think I would use the 250 tank only because they look better than the squatty 500 tank

 

[eric318]

Yeah the CR250 tank looks great. I think I will use rubber tie to keep the tank and seat down, as per CR250 stock.

I am also curious to see how the rear brake cable and brake pedal fit. Would you have a picture of this?