Cornering?

SpectraSVT · Mar 26, 2003

I read the post below about "push left to turn left" and I understand it to a point. Am I supposed to just push when I enter the corner or thru the entire corner? How much throttle needs to be applied entering? during? exiting? Cornering is what is holding me back from being fast and after looking at pictures of fast guys I understand the concept. But need more! Do I just have to try it to understand it?

los36 · Mar 27, 2003

Sound's like you're really overthinking things.
The best advice I can give is to change your thinking a little...
"LOOK left, go left". You're body(and bike) will follow your head. If you look at the ground or front wheel, that's probably where you'll end up.
Once you're in the turn, if you're front end feels like it's pushing or sliding, get your outside elbow up. You'll feel the difference.
As far as the throttle goes, whether you're a clutcher or a throttle control person, be smooth. As your turning gets better, practice rolling on the throttle sooner and sooner. You shouldn't be at wide-open until you're pointed down the next straight.
Hope this helps!

jaguar · Mar 27, 2003

Well a different technique can be used for each different type of turn.
flat turn, hard berm, soft berm, giant hard berms that you have to hit hard, etc
Some berms you rail, others you hit if not aligned to the outside.
Just go to the track when others are practicing and ask for pointers on how to do better in the turns. And then practice till you're ready to drop.

Moto Squid · Mar 28, 2003

When riding on the street I once though about that whole push left to go left, or however it goes. When you think about how to do it, it becomes almost impossible...just don't think, or thats my thought on life ;)

SpectraSVT · Mar 28, 2003

Well thx, I think? I'll see what happens tomorrow at the track then. My current turning style is really taking along time to progress so I'm constantly analyzing it to figure out why I am not comfortable turning quickly. I have gone over the side of the berm too many times for my taste from just trying to go balls out and force myself to corner but I didn't learn anything..so here I am "overthinking"! :)

jaguar · Mar 28, 2003

Usually going over the berm is from not sliding into it or just not turning with it and forcing the bike down into it.
The "turn left, go right" technique is just for the street and for flat turns.
To pitch your bike sideways before you hit a big berm is definitely not for beginners so my advice is just go slower for now.

CaptainObvious · Mar 28, 2003

Counter-steering is the ONLY way that a single-track vehicle (i.e. motorcycle) will turn. It doesn't matter if you are on the street or in knee-deep mud.

I disagree with most of the above posts. You should be thinking about your turning technique before you enter a turn and while you are in the turn. What else would you thinking about…the war, the pretty flowers?

Counter-steering is an essential part of the turning equation. You do it intuitively, the bike wouldn’t turn otherwise. You should also be thinking about your body position as this plays an important roll in how the bike will handle throughout the turn. That’s the part I think you’re missing; counter-steering starts the turn, body position and power management get you through the turn.

As Jaguar stated above, be sure to look through the turn. In fact, you should always look where you WANT to go. Looking at the fender or wheel only tells you about where you are, not where you’ll be in the coming seconds. Riding aggressively is 50% anticipation, 50% skill and 50% raw nerves!

los36 · Mar 31, 2003

What RV6 says is true. I guess that I am thinking when I'm going through turns. I'm thinking about keeping my elbows up and not letting the acceleration pull my upper body back (thus, unweighting the front wheel).

As far as countersteering, RV6 is right. But, when your riding don't try to think about countersteering. If you're not into speedway racing, you'll never improve by working on your countersteering technique. When you're riding your bicycle and want to turn right, do you think about turning your bars to the left to initiate the weight shift and lean?

If you want to stop going over the berm, enter the turn from as far outside as possible. This will require a smoother transition into and out of the turn. Start slow and then speed up. The phrase, "slow down to go faster" applies here. Try to carry momentum through the turn with a smooth line and smooth acceleration rather than banging into it (or over it).

It's true that there are many different types of turns, but the basics are pretty much the same: lead with your face, keep your elbows up, weight the outside peg and use smooth acceleration. If you're going to think about something while you're riding, make it one of the above.

Good luck!
BTW- how was did you do this past weekend?

linusb · Mar 31, 2003

Disclaimer: I'm a slow spode so I most likely don't know what I'm talking about.

With that out of the way, RV6 is right. Whether on the street or dirt, you are countersteering and you should consciously think about what physical inputs you do to achieve this effect. Pretty much anyone can ride a motorcycle without realizing how they are steering. It is pretty intuitive really. However, if you want to corner aggressively, consciously knowing how to corner is the only way to improve. It's not at all confusing...press left go left and press right go right. The harder you press, the more the bike will lean, the more you lean the sharper you can turn. The problem is that more lean = less traction and your brain probably knows this as it tends to raise your anxiety level the farther you are leaning! In theory, when taking a berm, you should be able to lean the bike at a very sharp angle and maintain traction due to the angle of the surface.

Regarding the comment on the bicycle...you don't feel the effects of countersteer so much because the mass of a bicycle and its wheel is so much less than that of a motorcycle and its wheels. This can be seen by riding a bicycle without any hands. You can still corner the bicycle just by leaning your body. Try this on a street motorcycle (haven't tried it on a dirt bike) and you will head straight into whatever corner you are trying to negotiate. It won't turn. Something about the inertia of the spinning mass of the tires....the more mass, an exponential amount of extra force is required to change the direction.

jzyz · Mar 31, 2003

When you are good at something, you tend to not have to "think" about doing somethig. When you are learning or trying to get better at something you better "think" about what you are doing, or I "think" you might end up eating some dirt.

los36 · Mar 31, 2003

SpectraSVT · Apr 8, 2003

Well thinking about the countersteering was difficult. It felt extremely unnatural. I was entering corners confused which made me even slower and more frustrated so I thru out the countersteering "thinking" and just tried to pay attention to what I was naturally doing. I found that I was letting the bike control where it wanted to go instaed of me "making" it go where I wanted to go.
I started to agressively get over the front and forcing the front end to corner sharper thru the turn. I also went into the corner with a target. I.E. where I wanted the bike to go. I then looked as soon as I could to that spot and I went there. SO I focused on momentum and my eyes. I got quite a bit faster and I was happy with the progress.
THe next weekend I noticed I was naturally countersteering when I was beginnning to apply the throttle to stay on the path I chose. So it works but ya can't focus on it. Guess I had to try it to understand it. Only took 4 hours of conscious cornering to figure it out....

Fark · Apr 8, 2003

Of course I'm not fast on dirt, but here's my input. Whether I do it consiously or not, it doesn't feel like I'm coutersteering in the dirt (unless I'm sliding).

Try this. Ride your bike in 4th on pavement. Look left, push left, go left. Try again on with the right. You'll feel it at speed.

Now ride in 5th, again on pavement and pretend you need to do an evasive manuever. Oil slick right in front of you, LOOKOUT! :) Push hard left, lean left, then push hard right, to straighten the bike back up.

You'll feel the effects of countersteering then, and you'll realize you aren't fast enough and don't really do it enough to notice in the dirt.

On the street, I countersteer into every turn and I feel it. Look left, shift weight, push left, go left. You shouldn't be riding hard enough on the street to lose the front or back end, so you hang your weight of the side, it helps you turn; you can do this because you have traction. Again, this is all for higher speeds (20+), not parking lot manuevers.

On the dirt, it feel betters to weight the outside peg because traction can become unavailable at any moment. With your weight OVER (not off) the bike, you dab and keep going.

OK I'll shut up with one more illustraition, MX guys lay the bike down and stay upright (ass to outside of turn). Roadrace guys lay the bike down and their ass is off the seat to the inside. Two different animals altogether.

Fark · Apr 18, 2003

Come on! I gave you squids an assignment! I know you're on DRN and I know you're out riding. It'll only take 5 minutes!! Report back!

SpeedyManiac · Apr 18, 2003

RV6- You say counter-steering is the only way a motorcycle turns, even in tight, bermed corners and tight trails? I counter-steer on sweepers, high speed corners and stuff like that, but I'm not sure about tight trails.

CaptainObvious · Apr 19, 2003

Well certainly the berm will create the necessary angle for a turn. In fact, when you think about it, when railing a berm you are really just riding a contour. In this case the contour is a curved berm and the result is a turn.

As far as tight woods goes, counter steering really has no effect below a fast walking pace because the spinning tire doesn’t create any gyroscopic effect. So if the tight woods keep you at a fast walking pace (5 miles per hour) counter-steering will not be an issue.

los36 · Apr 19, 2003

RV6...
Lets talk more about the countersteering. I'm not so sure that it's the gyroscopic effect of the wheel that helps initiate the turn when countersteering. I'd say that the turn-initiating countersteer is used more to initiate the LEAN. If you want to turn LEFT, you need to lean LEFT....so you countersteer RIGHT, moving the bike to the RIGHT and leaving your body hanging over the LEFT side of the bike, thus initiating the lean.

It's possible that we're saying the same thing in different ways.

Anyway, you guys trying to learn how to turn faster, don't worry about this. Just keep riding!

CaptainObvious · Apr 21, 2003

los, you are correct in that countersteering initiates lean, not a turn. However, lean is what begins the process of a coordinated turn. The difference between a street bike and a dirtbike is that we don't always want a coordinated turn.

The gyroscopic effect I’m referring to above is called Gyroscopic Precession. This is what happens when a lateral force is applied to the axis of a spinning gyroscope. The spinning gyroscope translates the force vector ninety degrees from the direction of spin. So if you try to turn your front wheel to the left, the force appears as a lateral force forward against the axle on the right side and is translated into a force that leans the wheel to the right.

Your handlebar input is translated by gyroscopic precession into a lean in the opposite direction. Gyroscopic precession starts the process of a turn and once established in the turn becomes inconsequential in the outcome. Once your bike is stable in a turn it will stay that way until it receives some steering input, a shift weight or a change in speed. This is why weighing the outside peg, pushing your knee into the tank, moving your body on the seat and throttle control all have an effect on the turn once it is initiated.

Don't forget the effect of rake and trail as well. But that's another topic all together.

tx246 · Apr 21, 2003

wow!! contersteering is a favorite topic of mine. i use it all of the time but it seems more effective in flat corners where changing lines/throttle and exits. in off road single track the countersteering brake slide is a major move among the fast guys. if the bikes suspension and spring rates are right, it goes like this. hauling up the trail with a 90 degree turn to the right coming up. get on the brakes and as the bike is in front of the turn (speed will determine when you lock up) actually lock up the rear into a slide. as the bike is sliding, countersteer (push on the right bar), and the back of the bike will come around to your left side. this squares off the corner and that 90 degree corner is over. deadly fast technique.

the best place to learn countersteering is in a grass field where traction is pretty predictible. it works at any speed but second gear for starters. the brake slide countersteer move can be practiced in a grass field too.

one word of caution about any countersteering technique. dont get crazy on the inputs. with over agressive countersteering, you can cause both wheels to slide. this is best left for the pros. rear slide or front slide that you cant get back results in a low side get off. both tires sliding usually results in that crash highlight we call a highside. they are rare on mx bikes but they do exist and they hurt. dont ask me how i know.

wannayz · Aug 26, 2003

I came across this post while searching for more answers on cornering because I'm having (traction) difficulties but I wanted to put my 2 cents in, being such an anal guy.
I first learned of "countersteer" as an "advanced technique" during a street riding class and it really slowed my learning trying to think about it when I should have just been riding as I had ridden a bicycle for 400yrs.
I THINK it's certainly possible to turn a bike by leaning your body over AND turning the bar like a car's steering wheel, BUT this would be a low speed and slow lumbering maneuver - pulling everything OVER the top of bike's center of gravity. Once the bike is at speed and inertia and gyroscopic effects want to keep the bike going in a straight line, the force it would take to lean the bike would likely be insurmountable. So the only way to QUICKLY lean the bike would be to PUSH against the handlebars - in effect the "countersteer". So as mentioned by many here, it's probably best for anyone having difficulty to just think in terms of leaning the bike quickly. The countersteer come's naturally. Extreme eg.: if you had to jump OFF the bike to the left, you'd naturally push the handlebar away to the right (force-counterforce).

CaptainObvious · Aug 28, 2003

Keith Code's books (Twist of the Wrist, Vols I & II) are the best books in the world for turning technique. Although they are written from a street riding perspective, many of the theories apply to dirt riding as well.

wannayz · Sep 1, 2003

I've got to check out that book. At any rate, after my long post about countersteer, I started thinking about it again this weekend and all it got me was a scary trip over a berm and a few other (and embarrasing) missed turns. So probably I don't know what the heck I'm even talking about!!!!!!!! (Although at least I'd admitted I don't try to think about countersteer).

Anyway, in the end and at MY beginner level, what's working decently for me is to push the bike over in the direction I want to go while smoothly getting my weight over on the outer side to keep the center of gravity intact. Staying on the throttle seems essential as this helps keep the bike upright.

PLEASE feel free to comment for or against because it's the only way my learning can grow. I'll simply take the advice to the track next time and work on it. Thanks.

Ol'89r · Sep 1, 2003

Originally posted by SpectraSVT
..so here I am "overthinking"! :)

The only way to get comfortable with cornering is PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE.

IMO, the countersteer method works good on a street bike as an evasive action.

In the dirt, there are as many different methods of cornering as there are different corners. No one method will work on all corners.

During a race, if you have to think about what you are doing, it's too late. :eek: Everything has to come automatically. The really fast guy's depend on their reflex action to get them around the track.

A good example of this is when you are going into a corner and your front wheel starts to wash out. You automatically counteract and catch it. If you were to have to think about what was happening and then decide what to do, you would probably find yourself lying on the ground wondering, what happened??? :scream:

Since your reflexes work much quicker than your brain, you have to be able to trust your reflexes. The only way to get to the point where you trust these reflexes is, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE.

Hope this helps. :thumb:

DISCLAIMER. I'm not one of the really fast guy's, but I know a lot of really fast guy's. :laugh:

Slips · Apr 7, 2004

Bump to teh top. Great post. I found it after asking a cornering question.

Cornering?

SpectraSVT

los36

jaguar

Moto Squid

SpectraSVT

jaguar

CaptainObvious

Formally known as RV6Junkie

los36

linusb

jzyz

los36

SpectraSVT

Fark

Fark

SpeedyManiac

CaptainObvious

Formally known as RV6Junkie

los36

CaptainObvious

Formally known as RV6Junkie

tx246

wannayz

CaptainObvious

Formally known as RV6Junkie

wannayz

Ol'89r

Slips

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Cornering?

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