Engine Ice? or Engine Hotter

[old#48]

EngineIce? or Engine Hotter

I don't see how this EngineIce stuff can improve cooling. I work in the HVAC industry (heating, ventilation, air-conditioning) and know a little about the heat transfer of liquids.

Before reading on, please remember the following: The environmental and safety benefits are great reasons to use propylene glycol instead of ethylene glycol. For sure, propylene glycol is much, much safer for kids, pets, and the environment.

EngineIce provides information that they use propylene glycol in deionized water and I am not sure what else - in my opinion, they are not real clear about anything else that is in it. Going by the -27 degF freeze protection they show, in my opinion, they are probably about 50/50 with the DI water, depending on what else is in it.

Well, I think IF the EngineIce coolant does, in fact, show a cooler temperature than regular coolant, then I think the actual engine parts themselves must be holding the heat and get hotter. Why do I think this, because I don't see how EngineIce can transfer heat as well as normal coolant? Why would I think this? Well, read on:

Its fairly common knowledge in HVAC that straight water has the best heat transfer characteristics, 50/50 ethylene glycol/water is next, and 50/50 propylene glycol/water has the worst heat transfer characteristics of the 3. As most of you know, the automotive anti-freeze you buy at the store is ethylene glycol (except for that one "pet safe" brand, I think its called Sierra, which is propylene glycol).

Numbers wise, at 180 degF, the thermal conductivity of 50/50 propylene glycol/water is around 7% LESS (worse) than the thermal conductivity of 50/50 ethylene glycol/water and about 43% LESS (worse) than that of straight water. Thats probably why all the automakers put ethylene glycol in cars - it works better thermally. I would think that if you want the actual engine parts themselves to run cooler and not just have a cooler liquid temperature, that you would want the fluid with the best heat transfer characteristics in the cooling system. I guess the real test would be to measure the actual exterior cylinder wall and exterior head temperature along with the coolant temp before and after putting in the EngineIce. A guy could maybe use one of those handheld electronic infrared HVAC surface temp measurement devices to do this.

Maxima's Coolanol, on the other hand, is 50/50 ethylene glycol in deionized water. I would think that putting Redline's WaterWetter in the Coolanol or in your own 33% ethylene glycol / 66% water mix would be a better way to go (or even a 25/75 mix). WaterWetter actually improves the heat transfer characteristics of a system rather than making them worse, plus the lower ethylene glycol percentage (and therefore increased water) will also help a bunch. I know the 33/66 or 25/75 mix won't offer the same freeze (or boil over) protection as a 50/50 mix, but most of us can probably live with, and adjust for that. I guess you could also add more water to the Coolanol if you wanted to go the premium product route but wanted less than a 50/50 mix.

Please Note: If you think you won't remember to add more glycol for the wintertime or your bike isn't go to be kept where it will never freeze, then, as you know, don't mess with going with less than 50% ethylene or propylene glycol in water.
Also please note: Remember, besides freezing sooner, there is another trade-off in running less ethylene or propylene glycol since the higher percentage of it you have, then the higher the boiling point of your coolant is.

The whole reason I started looking at increasing my bike's cooling performance is because when I go slow in very tight stuff or when climbing hills for a while, it seems like my bike gets a very slight low rpm detonation noise which goes away once I speed up and get some airflow through the radiator again. I know it will always eventually get hot when you go slow, but this cooling system performance improver stuff may slow down the process.

What do you guys think about all this? There is some good info about cooling systems under the WaterWetter technical info link at RedlineOil (www.redlineoil.com) and here are the Coolanol (www.maximausa.com) and EngineIce (www.cyclelogic.cc) links.

I repeat: If you think you won't remember to add more glycol for the wintertime or your bike isn't go to be kept where it will never freeze, then, as you know, don't mess with going with less than 50% ethylene or propylene glycol in water.



I have noticed some other things that appear "funny" in the EngineIce FAQ's (FAQ shown below).
**********************************************************************************
What about performance?

Engine Ice Hi-Performance Coolant tm uses propylene glycol, which has been proven to eliminate water pump gasket and seal failures. It has also been proven in high load, high stress conditions to run 10oC (50oF) cooler than standard coolants.
***********************************************************************************

While a temperature of 10 degC does correspond to 50 degF, a 10 degC change (change as indicated by the word "cooler") in temp does not correspond to a 50degF change in temp. For example, a temp drop from 93 degC down to 83 degC equates to 200 degF dropping down to 182 degF or an 18 degF drop. In my opinion, that type of reference they use is misleading but I still can't believe it would even drop it 18 degF .


Also, take a look at this FAQ (below) that is directly above the "What about performance?" FAQ.
*******************************************************************************
OK, so what. I don't care if bursts into flames when I take it out. Does it work, is it cooler?

If it didn't run cooler, why bother right? Absolutely! Engine Ice Hi-Performance Coolant tm has undergone extensive testing in the extreme heat and humidity of Southern Florida. Tests have proven to reduce operating race temperatures by as much as 50oF in some situations. This is why many champions and race teams have chosen to use Engine Ice Hi-Performance Coolant TM
*******************************************************************************

In this FAQ , they use the 50 DegF reference on its own, meaning a 50 degF drop in coolant temp. In my opinion, common sense tells ya that a 50 degF drop in coolant temp due to using this stuff could just be a special situation. Is it a 10 degC drop (equates to a 18 degF drop) or a 50 degF drop?

 

[Jeff Gilbert]

You got me on all that, I guess that's why I leave all that up to the people that tell me what to run. On the other hand could it be not the idea of running so much cooler but at a more consistant tempreture. It would seem as long as the temp was within tolerance that a more consistant temp would be the disired result by making it easier to tune.

I really don't know but this is what came to mind with no research.

 

[bigred455]

My research wasn't as involved as your's which is a very good article.Here is what i wrote a while ago.

Engine Ice
I tried engine ice,This is not a scientific study just my opinion.I wen't riding last thursday after work, it was 73 degrees out with 50% humidity.It takes me 20 minutes to get dressed and get loaded,and another 20 minutes drive home.My cylinder was still hot and the coolant was very very warm when i got home.I also noticed my plug insulator was medium gray I alway's have tan or a light brown color winter or summer. I don't know why the plug color changed i would guess different temperature of combustion chamber because of the engine ice.I know for a fact when i got home before checking my coolant temperature with golden spectro or prestone it was cool i am talking 80 degrees plus 70% humidity and the cylinder was just warm.So any way i wen't back to golden spectro coolant today I cut a few laps and my plug color came back to the tan brown side same jetting same mixture.The temperature today was 63 degree's.I know for sure the engine ice changed the insulator color on my plug grey and i think because it was running hotter I know I t was only 63 degrees today,but the spectro coolant was cool in10 minutes.Plus with the same plug it changed back to the tan brown side.I don't know what was up with the insulator color i alway's had tan or brown depending on the temperature's never grey.My opinion i will stick with spectro.

 

[old#48]

Thanks for the additional info BigRed, I'll check out the Golden Spectro coolant. Didn't know they had one, but what else is new? By the way, I emailed your "Maxima 927 Teardown" post to a friend of mine in DesMoines IA who likes the castor based oils also. Actual teardown evidence about a product is hard to come by. It was excellent.

 

[Jaybird]

old#48,
I'm curious, where did you get your percentaged information. Would it have been from Redline? (Side of Water-Wetter bottle?)

 

[old#48]

Ya know, I left everybody hangin' as to where I got those values, so I'm glad you brought this up.

For the difference in thermal conductivity percentages - I got the thermal conductivity values for straight water and the 50/50 mixes of eth gly/water and prop gly/water at 180 degF from the Dow Chemical Engineering Guides for ethylene glycol and propylene glycol. I then calculated the percentages.

Numbers wise, the thermal conductivity of ethylene glycol 50/50 with water at 180 degF is
0.238 Btu ft / hr sf degF. For propylene glycol 50/50 with water at 180 degF the thermal conductivity is 0.221 Btu ft / hr sf degF or about 7% less.

For straight water at 180 degF, the value is 0.388 Btu ft / hr sf degF.

I did just pick up a bottle of WaterWetter on Monday, but haven't tried it yet. The only performance-related-percentage they show on the bottle is - "Improves the ability of coolant to wet heat transfer surfaces by 50%". They also show a temperature bar graph improvement chart on the bottle.

No, I did not calculate the thermal conductivity improvement percentages I show by using the temperature bar graph improvement chart or any other info they show on the WaterWetter bottle. I also did not get it from info on the Redline or Maxima or any other website, but thanks for asking - we all gotta look out for each other.

 

[old#48]

BigRed, I looked at the Golden Spectro coolant. What I don't get is why they don't say what it is - ethylene glycol, propylene glycol or what? Maxima does the same thing on their website with their Coolanol - I found out that the Coolanol is ethylene glycol mixed with de-ionized water by e-mailing their tech support. The 50/50 part came from the Maxima website.

From Maxima Technical Support: Our Coolanol is an extremely low silicate, ethylene glycol antifreeze blended with deionized water and contains an additional (proprietary) additive treatment to lubricate the water pump and to condition the seals.

I think it's because these "special coolants" are basically about the same as regular coolants except for being pre-mixed with water. In my opinion, they are trying to put some "mystery" into it as a sales tactic - like if you can't tell the "special coolant" is at least close to the stuff you buy at Walmart, (except for the pre-mixed with water part) then you are more likely to try it.

In my opinion, EngineIce, on the other hand, tells you what it is (propylene glycol, DI water and I am not sure what else) since they know most coolants are ethylene glycol - again, in my opinion, they are using the "mystery factor" - just in a different way.

I know they all seem to use the de-ionized water and mention things like water-pump-lube additives etc., but I really don't think these special coolants are that much different than regular coolants - but, having said that, I am probably going to go ahead and use the Maxima Coolanol just because I do like to put good stuff in my bike. I did just buy a bottle of WaterWetter also, so I will be adding that (NOT the whole bottle) to whatever ethylene glycol coolant I use.

 

[ml36]

the only difference between what you buy at the auto store and the fancy motorcycle brands, is that they premix it and put it in a fancy bottle with nice graphics on the side. if you want to increase the efficiency of your coolant run some type of surfactant like water wetter, 25% glycol (ethylene or propylene, the only difference is the toxicity level), and 75% distilled water.

 

[CAL]

OK, riddle me this:

I had 50/50 mix eth. gly./water in my 426. I noticed on hot days in tight places it was starting to puke coolant. So I drained and flushed my radiators and filled with straight distilled water and added the recommended amount of Water Wetter. The first ride, I thought I could physically tell a difference. It seemed like there was less heat on my legs. The next ride (in 95 deg. weather), the bike puked coolant all day long. We did have a large group and it was slow going at times, but even after we slimmed the pack down and picked up the pace, it still spit some coolant. When I checked my coolant level...it was no where to be seen. Am I missing something? I was under the impression that straight water is the best coolant. And adding Water Wetter should make it even better...so I thought...and still think. Could adding more Water Wetter help? According the directions on the bottle, I didn't have to add very much W.W at all.

 

[old#48]

Maybe you would benefit from running, say 25% or 33% ethylene glycol because it would raise the boiling point of the fluid and make it less prone to boiling over. You would still get the heat transfer benefits of having more water than a 50/50 mix. From what I know, keep using the WaterWetter, though.

 

[old#48]

I have now been reminded that convection (not just conduction) plays a huge part in cooling system heat transfer. It all gets very, very complicated - beyond me - I mean this stuff gets way out there in
"la la" land.

As added support for the ethylene glycol having better overall (conduction AND convection wise) heat transfer characteristics than propylene glycol, I quote the following from a Dow Chemical Engineering and Operating Guide for propylene glycol:

For applications where there is no chance of accidental contact with food or beverage products, and where there is no possibility of incidental contact with drinkiing water, DOWTHERM ethylene glycol based fluids are generally used because of their greater heat transfer efficiency and superior low temperature performance.

Ethylene glycol based fluids are less viscous than propylene glycol based fluids. Therefore, they generally provide superior heat transfer efficiency and better low temperature performance and are preferred for most heat transfer applications. However, in applications where toxicity is a concern, propylene glycol fluids are used because of their low acute oral toxicity vs. the moderate? toxicity of ethylene glycol.

I'd say it's probably getting close to time to quit on this thing - I think we (especially me) have pretty much beat this subject to death. I think I'll get some post-tramatic-stress-syndrome counseling and just stay away from these technical debates. :whiner:

 

[ml36]

cal - just as old#48 stated, you need to add about 25 - 40% glycol to your coolant mix, along with the water wetter. without it, you do not get the elevated boiling temperature, which is more important than the heat transfer properties of water versus glycol. yes, water is better at transfering heat, but its not enough to offset the benifits of higher boiling temperature from glycol. i'm not sure if more is better when speaking of the water wetter. give it a shot.

 

[Jaybird]

More is worse with a surfactant. I think it will actually start to foam with too much.
Dow may say "moderate toxicity" when talking about ethylene glycol, but it is far from moderately toxic. (are they guaging against cyanide?)
It is for that very reason I chose to use propylene glycol. We are fighting a hard enough battle with the greens to actually be participating in a true ecological crime, and releasing ethlylene is not good for anything whatsoever.

 

[CAL]

A little dab of glycol it is, then. Thanks guys.
:)

Good point Jay!

 

[old#48]

ok, I have been looking further at the convection side of things. This is what I have figured out with the help of a book on heat transfer:


In a laminar (low velocity) flow condition, the convection heat transfer coefficient is directly proportional to the thermal conductivity.

So, in a laminar (low velocity) flow condition, the higher thermal conductivity of ethylene glycol causes a higher convection heat transfer than propylene glycol.



In a turbulent (high velocity) flow condition, the convection heat transfer coefficient is directly proportiional to the Nusselt number which is directly proportional to the Reynolds number. The Reynolds number is inversely proportional to viscosity so the lower the viscosity, then the higher the Reynolds number becomes and therefore, the higher the convection heat transfer coefficient becomes - and what do you know - the viscosity of ethylene glycol is lower than the viscosity of propylene glycol.

So, in a turbulent (high velocity) flow condition, the lower viscosity of ethylene glycol causes a higher convection heat transfer than propylene glycol.

 

[CAL]

Makes sense.

I wish I would have had you install our HVAC system in our house. I don't think the guys that installed ours could tell you what 2+2 equals. :silly:

 

[ml36]

see, i told you it not all that difficult old#48. the coolant is definately in a turbulant state. damn all this heat transfer talk is bringing back memories.

 

[old#48]

Some of those memories are not good, but I guess some of that stuff comes in handy - once in a while. Back to focusing on something more fun - like actually riding my bike, instead of sitting here typing about antifreeze, for god's sake - I mean, a guy could be called a little fruity for gettin this far into this stuff.

 

[old#48]

Jaybird, I think it would be great to use propylene glycol IF it's because of the environmental issues and being much safer for pets, kids etc.

In my opinion, though, it doesn't have the heat transfer qualities of ethylene glycol, but that doesn't bug me all that much either.

What bother's me is that, in my opinion, IF EngineIce is basically 50/50 propylene glycol in dionized water, then there are some questions here that need to be considered because of propylene glycol's heat transfer performance vs. ethylene glycol.

Whoever wants to use propylene glycol because of the good safety things about it, then great, but I suggest buying it at the store, like that Sierra brand or something.

I'm glad you brought that up, because the environmental and safety issues are great reasons to use propylene glycol instead of ethylene glycol.

 

[old#48]

Here's a link that shows a glycol comparison chart which compares ethylene glycol, propylene glycol, and Enviro-Kool which is a high-performance industrial heat transfer fluid. ****Glycol Comparison Chart**** It shows that E.G. is better than P.G. from a heat transfer standpoint. You will see that the differences between the P.G. and E.G. are not all that huge except for the viscosity difference.

Note that the viscosities shown are for a low temperature. When the fluids are hot, the viscosity of E.G. is still less than P.G., but the difference is not nearly as huge as shown for low temps. At 180 degF, the viscosity of 50/50 E.G. /water is about 13% less less the viscosity of 50/50 P.G. /water. (As stated earliler, the lower the viscosity, then the better the convection heat transfer).


Here again, my point is not that E.G. has better heat transfer characteristics than P.G. My point is that, in my opinion, IF EngineIce is basically 50/50 propylene glycol in dionized water, then there are some questions here that need to be considered because of propylene glycol's heat transfer performance vs. ethylene glycol.

I DO NOT RECOMMEND using the Enviro-Kool for automotive/motorcycle applications since it doesn't seem to have any of the usual ASTM test approvals that automotive and motorcycle antifreeze's have.

I think if the EngineIce coolant does, somehow, in fact, show a cooler temperature than regular ethylene glycol 50/50 in water, then I think the actual engine parts themselves must be holding the heat and get hotter. I would like to see actual test evidence on how well this stuff works - something like they show for WaterWetter on Redline's site.

This evidence would need to show the temperature of the cylinder, cylinder head, and the coolant temp for EngineIce, propylene glycol 50/50 in distilled water, and ethylene glycol 50/50 in distilled water.

 

[EngIceDave]

It's amazing how many times I have read ALL of that information on different sites and how so many people who've never used it say it doesn't work...It's actually very funny. They've never tried it, but they're sure it doesn't work.

In regards to the one gentleman and his plug color, I have had some reports of a need to re-jet after changing to Engine Ice...not always, but once in awhile. A re-jetting would have solved your issue on the plug. The coolant may have been warmer longer because it was drawing out more heat from the motor.

Hate dragging up a thread that's a month old, let's just say that in some areas they're correct and in many they're not. The tests of EG vs. PG they quote is in distilled water, not Di water. It also doesn't consider some additives that are in Engine Ice...so those tests they're quoting are inaccurate.

It's amazing to me how we can get letter after letter and phone call after phone call from people who've tried it and say it works. We've had test results and positive feedback from top motorcycle road race teams and riders, top motorcycle off-road teams and riders, NASCAR teams, ASA auto race teams, Hooters Pro Cup auto race teams and ARCA auto race teams all tell us how well it works....and you know what? We don't pay ANY OF THEM to use it...NONE...They use it because it works...but wait! It doesn't work, right? These folks are using it and saying it works just for the heck of it.

Somehow, we've been able to brainwash and convince all of these people that it works...

This is a sample of our sponsored riders…Riders using Engine Ice have won over 250 National Championships.

We prove it works, we prove it on the track and we prove it with championships…You can’t tell me that Yamaha Motor Corp. is going to let Yamaha of Troy use it if it didn’t work, especially in the YZ250F last year, during it’s debut year…Or American Suzuki telling it’s Amateur team riders like Millsaps, Hepler, Goerke, Kiniry, Johnson and more use it if didn’t work, James Stewart uses it….Want his Dad’s phone number to call and ask him if it works??

Our 2001 AMA Loretta Lynn's Amateur National Motocross Champions – 14 total championships

James Stewart, Jr.

Ricky Renner

Joshua Hansen

Leah Cantrell

Gavin Gracyk

Shawn Skinner

Broc Hepler

Michael Blose

Sean Hackley, Jr.

Jason Lawrence

Stefy Bau

Yamaha of Troy
Chad Reed - 2002 EA Sports/AMA 125 East Supercross Champion (Using Engine Ice)
Rodrig Thain
Greg Schnell
Ivan Tedesco
and
2001 EA Sports/AMA 125cc West Supercross Champion, Ernesto Fonseca (Using Engine Ice)

"When the competition heats up, the Yamaha of Troy Race Team relies on Engine Ice Hi-Performance Coolant to keep our engines cool for maximum performance and reliability." - Eric Kehoe, Team Manager, Yamaha of Troy Racing (2001)


Recommended by the American Suzuki Amateur Motocross Team


Some of our Great Sponsored Racers:
Motocross
Davi Milsaps
Matt Goerke
Bryan Johnson Jr.
Dean Dyess III
Colten Maynard
Ricky Renner
Dan Truman
Tyson Hadsell
Forrest, Karsten & Brandon Butler
Jacob Saylor
Joshua Hansen
Gavin Gracyk
Malcolm Stewart
Clark Stiles
Troy Adams
Shelley Kann
Aaron Dieter
Kyle Keylon
Eddie Ray
Mark Wundrack
Jeremy Riesenberg
Ashley Wheat
Rodney Cavender
Donnie McGourty
Jessie Casillias
Sarah Whitmore
Ryan Mills
Jimmy Wilson

Auto Racing
Robert Huffman – Four-Time NASCAR Goodys Dash Series Champion
Kevin Cywinski – Former ASA Champion and Rookie of the Year
Mike Cope – Former Multi-divisional Champion
Dan Frederickson - 2001 ReMax Challenge Series Rookie of the Year
LaFavre Racing – Premier two car ASA Racing team
Shane Wallace - RoY contender in Hooters ProCup South Series


Motorcycle Road Racing
Marco Martinez – 2001 Southeastern CCS Expert Champion, 2001 CCS National Champion -Exp. Heavyweight Superbike
Shane Prieto – 2000 Southeastern CCS Expert Champion
Darren Luck - 2001 CCS National Champion (3 classes) -Amateur GTU, Amateur Middleweight Superbike, Amateur Heavyweight Superbike
Pedro Valiente - 2001 CCS National Champion - Expert Middleweight Superbike
Donald A Pepin Sr. - 2001 Southeastern CCS Expert Champion - Amateur Formula 40
Johno Bowman
Ralph Fernandez
Pat Weekley
Rick Narup
Greg Esser

Test Report from Mike Cope Racing
Introduction:
On March 24, 2002 the American Speed Association season opener was run at the 3/4-mile oval USA International Speedway in Lakeland, Florida. This was the first time Engine Ice coolant was used in a Mike Cope racing vehicle.
Test Parameters:
The engine was a GM Voretc ASA 5.7 liter V-8. This engine is a slightly modified version of the stock Corvette LS-1 motor. The cooling system holds 1.3 gallons and non-diluted Engine Ice was used.
The temperature of ambient air at Lakeland on test day was averaging 85oF. Track temperature was 105°F at 1:30PM. The weather consisted of strong sun with increased cloud cover towards late afternoon. A baseline temperature of 200ºF was used as a comparison coolant temperature based on a previous test conducted two weeks prior with an ambient temperature of 75ºF.
The test was conducted during practice, qualifying and the race.

Feedback:
Engine Ice immediately reduced coolant temperature to 185ºF during the first outing. This was a 15ºF reduction from the baseline coolant temperature. With the success of the product it was determined that a full taped configuration could be utilized during qualifying. ALL airflow to the radiator was blocked off to allow for more downforce. In 3 laps (2.25 miles), the coolant temperature only reached 205ºF.
During the race, the radiator was allowed minimal airflow and the temperature the entire day of the 200-lap race remained at 200ºF.
Conclusion:
Engine Ice proved to be an effective performance enhancement on the #25 Florida Auto Auction car. The reduction in coolant temperature was noticeable from the first run and continued consistently throughout the two-day test. The results obtained in qualifying with airflow completely blocked and during the race in heavy traffic were exceptional. Engine Ice will be utilized by Mike Cope Racing for the rest of the season to give us the performance advantage over our competition.
Report Prepared By:
Cameron Kerr
Race Engineer
Mike Cope Racing


Smoke and mirrors....smoke and mirrors.....

 

[Rich Rohrich]

No free plugs or press releases this time Davey Boy. If you want to advertise your product out here go through the proper channels. Although I seriously doubt DRN would even take your money. Save your unsubstantiated BS for the other boards.

Feel free to go talk trash on all the other boards about DRN and how badly we treat you. I'm sure your legions of ill-informed lap-dogs will make it all better.

 

[EngIceDave]

OK...

So I guess the note sent to me today for the DRN thing at Cooperland was useless and you don't want my money for that either.

Too bad you just ran off a potential sponsor from your event.

You could have been nicer in your reply.

Not sure what you're referring to in "Unsubstantiated BS"...You had a test report there...oh hell, not sure what you're talking about.

I try to participate here, answer a question posed about impellers, some comment gets made about Engine Ice, I read it and I reply to it.

Obviously, you have an issue with our product and myself. Not sure what it is, whatever...

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Originally posted by EngIceDave
Too bad you just ran off a potential sponsor from your event.

I guess I'll just have to make up the difference from my own pocket. A small price to pay to keep the signal to noise ratio of DRN intact.

Originally posted by EngIceDave

You could have been nicer in your reply.

I've tried that in the past with you and it clearly was a less than effective approach.

Originally posted by EngIceDave

Not sure what you're referring to in "Unsubstantiated BS"...You had a test report there...

You posted a commercial, nothing more.

Originally posted by EngIceDave

Obviously, you have an issue with our product and myself. Not sure what it is, whatever...

I have an issue with ANYONE who posts thinnly disguised SPAM, and attempts to prop up their product with dubious "data".

Your repeated dismissals of peer reviewed technical publications is laughable. You are nothing if not predictable.

Post some REAL test data that can be verified and the post will stand . I'm sure an excellent technical discussion could come from it. Until then save the infomercials for late night TV.

 

[dave186]

uh oh, this could get ugly :scream: . anyway back to coolants, what is this dexcool stuff (the red stuff that GM is using now) is it ethylene glycol, propylene glycol or what? and how does it compare?