flattrack technique
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Ol'89r
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- Jan 27, 2000
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arossitt.
Go straight, turn left. Go straight, turn left. Go straight, turn left. Go straight, turn left. Go straight, turn left. Go straight, turn left.:)
Just kidding, actually, there is a little more to it than that. If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask them. We have a couple dirttrack guys here that may be able to answer them. It's the turning left part that is a little tricky.
Go straight, turn left. Go straight, turn left. Go straight, turn left. Go straight, turn left. Go straight, turn left. Go straight, turn left.:)
Just kidding, actually, there is a little more to it than that. If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask them. We have a couple dirttrack guys here that may be able to answer them. It's the turning left part that is a little tricky.
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Ol'89r
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The turning left part.
The trick is overcoming centrifugal force. When you go around a corner, centrifugal force or CF will try to force you to the outside of the turn. The faster you go, the more CF will force you to the outside. Sooner or later you will lose traction and if you rely strictly on traction, you will slide out.
So, the idea is to use your horse power to keep you down on the inside of the track. You do this by driving in towards the inside of the track. The constant drive of the rear wheel pushes you toward the inside while also driving you forward. If you were to shut the throttle off while in the middle of a turn, CF would take over and fling you off the track.
Picture yourself going around in a circle with a rope tied to a stake in the middle of the circle and the other end tied to your bike. You could go as fast as the strength of the rope would let you. The faster you go the more force is applied to the rope by CF. Sooner or later the rope will break, sending you out of the circle. It is the same with going around a turn, except you are not attached to a rope.
By driving and steering in towards the inside of the corner, it will hold you in the corner all the while CF is trying to force you out. Most flattracks are, well, flat. So there is not a berm or much of a banking to hold you on the track. Now, mix in about nineteen other riders, all trying to get thru the same corner within a few feet of each other and it makes for some very good racing.:scream:
If you have ever watched a flattrack race, you will notice that the riders don't shut the throttle off at the end of the straight-a-way. They may shut off for an instant to get the bike pitched sideways, but, then they are right back on the gas. On some tracks like Eastern cushion or pea-gravel tracks, you never shut the throttle off at all. One of the hardest things to make yourself do is, not shut the throttle off at the end of a long straight-a-way. But, if you do, that ol' CF will fling you right off the track.
Of course there is a lot more to it than that, but, those are the basics. I hope this makes sense, it's early and I've only had three cups of coffee.:confused:
The trick is overcoming centrifugal force. When you go around a corner, centrifugal force or CF will try to force you to the outside of the turn. The faster you go, the more CF will force you to the outside. Sooner or later you will lose traction and if you rely strictly on traction, you will slide out.
So, the idea is to use your horse power to keep you down on the inside of the track. You do this by driving in towards the inside of the track. The constant drive of the rear wheel pushes you toward the inside while also driving you forward. If you were to shut the throttle off while in the middle of a turn, CF would take over and fling you off the track.
Picture yourself going around in a circle with a rope tied to a stake in the middle of the circle and the other end tied to your bike. You could go as fast as the strength of the rope would let you. The faster you go the more force is applied to the rope by CF. Sooner or later the rope will break, sending you out of the circle. It is the same with going around a turn, except you are not attached to a rope.
By driving and steering in towards the inside of the corner, it will hold you in the corner all the while CF is trying to force you out. Most flattracks are, well, flat. So there is not a berm or much of a banking to hold you on the track. Now, mix in about nineteen other riders, all trying to get thru the same corner within a few feet of each other and it makes for some very good racing.:scream:
If you have ever watched a flattrack race, you will notice that the riders don't shut the throttle off at the end of the straight-a-way. They may shut off for an instant to get the bike pitched sideways, but, then they are right back on the gas. On some tracks like Eastern cushion or pea-gravel tracks, you never shut the throttle off at all. One of the hardest things to make yourself do is, not shut the throttle off at the end of a long straight-a-way. But, if you do, that ol' CF will fling you right off the track.
Of course there is a lot more to it than that, but, those are the basics. I hope this makes sense, it's early and I've only had three cups of coffee.:confused:
- Jul 31, 2000
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sounds like good advice '89r, where can I find a good deal on a steel shoe ;)
Ol'89r
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Jeff. There is a guy named Ken Maely right here in Corona that makes steel shoes. He has made them since the 50's. There is another fella named George in the midwest that makes them. 'Hot shoes by George.' I think he is in Indiana or Illinois. If you really want one, let me know.
bbbom. Right you are.;)
JP. That was my generic explaination, sorry to confuse you.:confused:
Ol'89r
SFO
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- Feb 16, 2001
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My first ice race I didn't get it...
I knew I had a ok set up but it didn't come together at all, I finished last.
Then my buddy/mentor says that he is going to stand at the end off the front strait where I should shut off.
Holy Cow!
I was shutting off about half the way down the strait, now if I shut off were he said the bike did new things.
I began to have to automaticaly toss the bike sideways just to make the corner. No time to think about it.
It was amazing.
I hope this applies.
BTW, Ken Mailey also built a speedway bike which some people believe was copied cylinder head wise by husky/husaberg.
I knew I had a ok set up but it didn't come together at all, I finished last.
Then my buddy/mentor says that he is going to stand at the end off the front strait where I should shut off.
Holy Cow!
I was shutting off about half the way down the strait, now if I shut off were he said the bike did new things.
I began to have to automaticaly toss the bike sideways just to make the corner. No time to think about it.
It was amazing.
I hope this applies.
BTW, Ken Mailey also built a speedway bike which some people believe was copied cylinder head wise by husky/husaberg.
- Jul 31, 2000
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I'd love to get into flattrack, but my regular bikes are keeping me broke at the moment, just don't have the resources :mad:
Perhaps after I get older it'll be something to try, I've tried imatating flattrack on my enduro bikes and I can't believe how much fun it is to go around in circles :)
Perhaps after I get older it'll be something to try, I've tried imatating flattrack on my enduro bikes and I can't believe how much fun it is to go around in circles :)
Skid Jackson
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- Nov 1, 2000
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Great intro to flat track description, 89!!
I remember seeing flatrackers always steering away from the turn to help the rear stay hooked. Kinda the same priciple as when you start to slide on snow in your car. Same applies if you are banging into a corner with a kwad.
My father has a 1/2 mile flat track on his farm and I used to experiment with my lil bros multi-wheel. As long as you keep up your intestinal fortitude and don't let off the gas, you can pin it around the whole curve as long as you got your wheels set right and your weight in the right place. btw...do NOT look for another gear whilst in the turn. :eek:
My father has a 1/2 mile flat track on his farm and I used to experiment with my lil bros multi-wheel. As long as you keep up your intestinal fortitude and don't let off the gas, you can pin it around the whole curve as long as you got your wheels set right and your weight in the right place. btw...do NOT look for another gear whilst in the turn. :eek:
Ol'89r
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Jaybird. That is true. Once you have set-up your slide, you do steer away from the turn or countersteer to maintain the slide. But, initially to get the slide set-up and to keep from blowing off the end of the straight-a-way, you drive in toward the inside of the track. Of course it depends on the type of track and the surface. There are as many different techniques as there are different types of tracks. Driving a sprint car is very similar. Watching a sprint car race you wil notice how they power into the corner at the end of the straight and then set-up their slide. The power to weight ratio is very similar to a flattrack machine.
SFO. Actually Ken Maely used the XL350 honda head design. He used XL valves, guides and rocker arms but cast his own head. I was doing some work with Ken at that time. The engine was fast, but, would not hook up. The only guy that was successful on it was Mike Bast. Of course Bast was fast on anything. I did hear that some reps from the Husaberg factory came to see what he was building.
Ol'89r
SFO. Actually Ken Maely used the XL350 honda head design. He used XL valves, guides and rocker arms but cast his own head. I was doing some work with Ken at that time. The engine was fast, but, would not hook up. The only guy that was successful on it was Mike Bast. Of course Bast was fast on anything. I did hear that some reps from the Husaberg factory came to see what he was building.
Ol'89r
I raced dirt roundy-rounds in the 80's and got a chance to pilot a sprint car or two as well.
I won't talk about the stock classes becaue it's best to do what it takes to finish in them, but I can offer a little on the modified dirt car part.
Ol89'er is correct on the sprint car/dirt car thing. You want to power to the turn then turn to get the rear headed correctly. At this point oversteering and throttle control is critical to keeping the car hooked. Raising the throttle slightly through the turn (or rolling it on as we like to say). Other factors are in place during a race, like other cars:eek: but when I was qualifying or out in front, the best technique on a smaller track (mind you dirt tracks are mostly banked) is to draw a diamond shape on the track. This diamond will be a straight line from the middle of the strait to the halfway point of the next turn, then to the middle of next strait, etc.... You want to try your best to point the vehichle in the direction that takes you to the next diamond point. This technique has to be modified for tracks more than 1/3 mile that have longer straights but the principle is always the same. Your fastest times will come when you drive hard to each point like that. On a banked track it allows the dirt to help place the car in the corret position without much work on your part. You just need to keep the rear hooked and driving.
I realise I've went way past topic, but when Ol89er mentioned sprint cars, it got my old jucies flowing again. ;) Outlaw sprints get to use wings to help them fly around corners!
I won't talk about the stock classes becaue it's best to do what it takes to finish in them, but I can offer a little on the modified dirt car part.
Ol89'er is correct on the sprint car/dirt car thing. You want to power to the turn then turn to get the rear headed correctly. At this point oversteering and throttle control is critical to keeping the car hooked. Raising the throttle slightly through the turn (or rolling it on as we like to say). Other factors are in place during a race, like other cars:eek: but when I was qualifying or out in front, the best technique on a smaller track (mind you dirt tracks are mostly banked) is to draw a diamond shape on the track. This diamond will be a straight line from the middle of the strait to the halfway point of the next turn, then to the middle of next strait, etc.... You want to try your best to point the vehichle in the direction that takes you to the next diamond point. This technique has to be modified for tracks more than 1/3 mile that have longer straights but the principle is always the same. Your fastest times will come when you drive hard to each point like that. On a banked track it allows the dirt to help place the car in the corret position without much work on your part. You just need to keep the rear hooked and driving.
I realise I've went way past topic, but when Ol89er mentioned sprint cars, it got my old jucies flowing again. ;) Outlaw sprints get to use wings to help them fly around corners!
KawieKX125
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- Oct 9, 2000
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Ol'89er-
CF is an imaginary force. It does not really exist, it is only felt.
The thing that makes the bike want to shoot out of the turn is your inertia. According to Newton's first law, an object in motion will remain in motion and an object at rest and a object at rest will remain at rest unless acted on by an outside force.
So, to make your bike stray wants to remain speeding off in a straight line, presumable off the track, you make it change direction by doing whatever you do to turn.
The best example I can give is the ol car example.
While going round a corner in a car, you feel like you are being pressed towards the outside of the turn. This feeling is centrifugal force. The reason it exists is because of your inertia.
Some links that will 'splain it better that me
http://observe.ivv.nasa.gov/nasa/space/centrifugal/centrifugal_index.html
http://www.exploratorium.edu/xref/phenomena/centrifugal_force.html
Also do a search on google. It has some decent links.
Boy, isnt physics fun! I just love it.
CF is an imaginary force. It does not really exist, it is only felt.
The thing that makes the bike want to shoot out of the turn is your inertia. According to Newton's first law, an object in motion will remain in motion and an object at rest and a object at rest will remain at rest unless acted on by an outside force.
So, to make your bike stray wants to remain speeding off in a straight line, presumable off the track, you make it change direction by doing whatever you do to turn.
The best example I can give is the ol car example.
While going round a corner in a car, you feel like you are being pressed towards the outside of the turn. This feeling is centrifugal force. The reason it exists is because of your inertia.
Some links that will 'splain it better that me
http://observe.ivv.nasa.gov/nasa/space/centrifugal/centrifugal_index.html
http://www.exploratorium.edu/xref/phenomena/centrifugal_force.html
Also do a search on google. It has some decent links.
Boy, isnt physics fun! I just love it.
Centrifugal Force:
The force tending to pull a thing outward when it is rotating rapidly around a center.
:D
The force tending to pull a thing outward when it is rotating rapidly around a center.
:D
Ace McCool
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- May 1, 2000
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Centrifugal force is simply the force felt by an object when centripetal force is actually occurring. Centripetal force is the force that acts on an object changing direction as it is continually being pulled toward the center of the circle.
When a car goes around a turn and you get pushed against the door, it is actually the door that is pushing on you. Your body is trying to go in a straight line, but the vehicle's door is occupying the space where your body is trying to go, thus you feel the force of the car moving into you, but from your standpoint it seems that you are moving into the car.
What does this mean?
Nothing really
I hate to be such a nerd on a dirt bike site :confused:
When a car goes around a turn and you get pushed against the door, it is actually the door that is pushing on you. Your body is trying to go in a straight line, but the vehicle's door is occupying the space where your body is trying to go, thus you feel the force of the car moving into you, but from your standpoint it seems that you are moving into the car.
What does this mean?
Nothing really
I hate to be such a nerd on a dirt bike site :confused:
Hmmmm....:think
Ace, I think you have fallen victom to the same problem Kawie has.
Plot out and prove to me that you are not being moved outward from the center of the cars rotation and I'll buy it. Have fun! BTW...you will also need to show how the car door is not also moving outward. I think you'll find, if you do happen to have calculus skills, that the door is in fact moving outward and with slightly greater force than your body is. To save time, you may want to just tie a rock to a string and swing it around. You'll see that the rock is in fact moving outward and NO the air isn't moving inward pushing on the rock. :confused:
Ace, I think you have fallen victom to the same problem Kawie has.
Plot out and prove to me that you are not being moved outward from the center of the cars rotation and I'll buy it. Have fun! BTW...you will also need to show how the car door is not also moving outward. I think you'll find, if you do happen to have calculus skills, that the door is in fact moving outward and with slightly greater force than your body is. To save time, you may want to just tie a rock to a string and swing it around. You'll see that the rock is in fact moving outward and NO the air isn't moving inward pushing on the rock. :confused:
Inertial reference frames.
This is so picky I wasn't even going to say it, but I can't help myself. (12 steps just aren't enough)
In the rider's frame of reference, which just isn't covered in most beginning Physics classes, centrifugal force is very real and felt.
In the Earth's frame, it's not an applied force. It's a reaction to another force.
This is so picky I wasn't even going to say it, but I can't help myself. (12 steps just aren't enough)
In the rider's frame of reference, which just isn't covered in most beginning Physics classes, centrifugal force is very real and felt.
In the Earth's frame, it's not an applied force. It's a reaction to another force.
Ace McCool
Member
- May 1, 2000
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I still disagree.
With the rock and the string example, you've got your factors mixed up. The rock is like the person and the string is like the car door. When you start the rock spinning, the rock wants to travel in a straight line (if it came off the string it would travel in a straight line) but the string keeps it from shooting off. The centrifugal force, which is felt, is not the rock moving outward but the tension on the string is from the force you need to apply to pull the rock inward; to keep it from shooting off.
Centrifugal force in this case as well as with the car is just the felt force of centripetal force.
With the rock and the string example, you've got your factors mixed up. The rock is like the person and the string is like the car door. When you start the rock spinning, the rock wants to travel in a straight line (if it came off the string it would travel in a straight line) but the string keeps it from shooting off. The centrifugal force, which is felt, is not the rock moving outward but the tension on the string is from the force you need to apply to pull the rock inward; to keep it from shooting off.
Centrifugal force in this case as well as with the car is just the felt force of centripetal force.
