have you heard

Rotorranch · May 21, 2007

kingbrian said:
just out of curiousity are they only eliminating the smokers here in the US? or is this world wide?

The States...for now. Expect the rest of the world to follow.

Rotor

sixds · May 21, 2007

its pretty much pointless to debate the two stroke four stroke thing, in my opinion.

Dekester · May 22, 2007

I don't see this as a 2 stroke/4stroke debate and I hope it does not become one. My main point was about HONDA and their business decisions. My post did flow into other topics about 2 and 4 strokes but that was loosely related to the HONDA business decisions. I was not trying to create a debate.

keithcr250r · May 22, 2007

long live the 2 strokes!!!

rmc_olderthandirt · May 22, 2007

Rotorranch said:
The States...for now. Expect the rest of the world to follow.

Rotor

Actually, a large portion of the world has already gone that way. When it comes to emissions, fuel economy, etc. Europe and Japan are way ahead of us.

Rod

76GMC1500 · May 22, 2007

It depends on what you consider way ahead. In terms of fuel economy and CO2 emissions (kind of interellated), yes they are ahead. But, in terms of particulate, sulfer, and most of all, NOx emissions, they are way behind. CO2 is harmless, but NOx causes smog and acid rain. That is why we don't have many diesel cars in the states. Did you know most of our Alaskan oil goes to Japan because its sulfer content is too high to use in the states?

IndyMX · May 22, 2007

76GMC1500 said:
It depends on what you consider way ahead. In terms of fuel economy and CO2 emissions (kind of interellated), yes they are ahead. But, in terms of particulate, sulfer, and most of all, NOx emissions, they are way behind. CO2 is harmless, but NOx causes smog and acid rain. That is why we don't have many diesel cars in the states. Did you know most of our Alaskan oil goes to Japan because its sulfer content is too high to use in the states?

Uhh.. Please don't post about things you don't have a clue about.

CO2 is not harmless..

It's painfully obvious that you are smart about a lot of topics. You can stop pounding your chest, trying to impress us with your incredible intellect.

mox69 · May 22, 2007

So a 4 stroke dirt bike that gets 1 mile to the gallon would be better than a 2 stroke that gets 100 miles to the gallon?

Simply because the 2stroke emits "N0x" and the 4 doesn't?

Again go look at Evinrudes website. Their figures are Total Emissions, according to the EPA guidelines. Their two stroke emits less "harmful crap" (taken as a whole, CO2, NOx, unburnt fuel, etc) than their competitors 4 strokes.

I don't really care if the 2 stroke emits 10 more ppm sulfur than a 4 stroke, its overall emissions that the EPA cares about.

lynch racing · May 22, 2007

rmc_olderthandirt said:
Actually, a large portion of the world has already gone that way. When it comes to emissions, fuel economy, etc. Europe and Japan are way ahead of us.

Rod

The states for now? and the rest of the world will follow :whoa: Europe and Japan have been ahead of you for years!!! Just tell KTM and TM that all thier research and development are going to be banned! They are way ahead in the 144 game and it`s snowballing over here, America is not thier target market,what they sell there is only icing on the cake,not the cake... a trend is on the verge of reversing, :cool:

kawicam250 · May 22, 2007

the problem is that the emissions of a 2T are far less than, for example, diesels. the EPA and the government have stretched it out.

lynch racing · May 22, 2007

Dekester said:
I don't see this as a 2 stroke/4stroke debate and I hope it does not become one. My main point was about HONDA and their business decisions. My post did flow into other topics about 2 and 4 strokes but that was loosely related to the HONDA business decisions. I was not trying to create a debate.

I agree...Honda , AMA, Business, future, :uh:

XRpredator · May 22, 2007

lynch racing said:
. . . America is not thier target market,what they sell there is only icing on the cake, not the cake...

show me the numbers

76GMC1500 · May 22, 2007

Honda is trying to portray themselves as a green company. The 2-stroke isn't widely seen as a green engine, so Honda is dumping it. It's not about reality and science or actually reducing emissions, it's about public image.

Indy, my view that CO2 is relatively harmless is just as valid as your view that global warming is caused by CO2 emissions. Thanks to the media, sensationalism, and a general population who thinks their opinion matters on every subject despite having no backround or education in the subject, the scientific method is dead.

150rguy · May 22, 2007

flyingfuzzball said:
they have 4 strokes for every class now.

Thats news to me. They make 50cc 4t but thats not equal to a 50 2t. And do they make a 4t for the 65 class? No, other than the 70 (which doesn't compare to a 65) there's no fourstroke for that class. And the 150R doesn't race 85, it races supermini. 66-85cc 2t and 75-125cc fourstroke is what's allowed in the 85 class.

Matt 193 · May 22, 2007

150rguy said:
Thats news to me. They make 50cc 4t but thats not equal to a 50 2t. And do they make a 4t for the 65 class? No, other than the 70 (which doesn't compare to a 65) there's no fourstroke for that class. And the 150R doesn't race 85, it races supermini. 66-85cc 2t and 75-125cc fourstroke is what's allowed in the 85 class.

Honda doesn't have a 65cc 2 stroke so it doesn't need a replacement in that class nor a 50cc race bike. You are correct they don't have a 85cc race bike only a supermini now since they lost the cr 85.

150rguy · May 22, 2007

Matt 193 said:
Honda doesn't have a 65cc 2 stroke so it doesn't need a replacement in that class nor a 50cc race bike.

thats not the point, he said that they have made a 4t for every class. He didn't say they made a 4t to replace all of their 2ts.

Matt 193 · May 22, 2007

I understand I felt he implied there was now a 4 stroke in all of there current classes. It can be seen both ways. I saw it diffrent then you. O well piont is understood.

Dekester · May 22, 2007

76GMC1500 said:
Honda is trying to portray themselves as a green company. The 2-stroke isn't widely seen as a green engine, so Honda is dumping it. It's not about reality and science or actually reducing emissions, it's about public image.

Honda is not trying to BE green, they are trying to MAKE $$green$$. LOL!

It's all about the money and I hope it backfires big time. :uh:

76GMC1500 · May 22, 2007

It is all about the money and the image of being a green company sells for Honda. That is why they are dumping the 2-stroke because it doesn't fit in with their image, not because there is something inherently wrong with it.

flyingfuzzball · May 22, 2007

150rguy said:
thats not the point, he said that they have made a 4t for every class. He didn't say they made a 4t to replace all of their 2ts.

i meant the major classes

and in some of the races i race in 150's are w/ the 80's

Dekester · May 22, 2007

76GMC1500 said:
It is all about the money and the image of being a green company sells for Honda. That is why they are dumping the 2-stroke because it doesn't fit in with their image, not because there is something inherently wrong with it.

No sir. I think you are confusing the car company with the motorcycle company. They are dumping the 2 stroke because they put ALL their resources and energy into 4 stroke development and their 2 strokes can not compete. Declining sales year after year for honda. There are a ton of dealer leftovers and for more than one model year.

Yamaha does not have these problems as they continued to upgrade the YZ's throughout the years. Suzuki has come a long way (even if they are taking a lot of the improvements from Yamaha) and put effort into their 2 strokes as well.

kawicam250 · May 23, 2007

Dekester said:
No sir. I think you are confusing the car company with the motorcycle company. They are dumping the 2 stroke because they put ALL their resources and energy into 4 stroke development and their 2 strokes can not compete. Declining sales year after year for honda. There are a ton of dealer leftovers and for more than one model year.

Yamaha does not have these problems as they continued to upgrade the YZ's throughout the years. Suzuki has come a long way (even if they are taking a lot of the improvements from Yamaha) and put effort into their 2 strokes as well.

you left out the most commited brand to 2-strokes, KTM. KTM is our only hope for the survival of the 2T, especially by creating the KTM144.

Dekester · May 23, 2007

kawicam250 said:
you left out the most commited brand to 2-strokes, KTM. KTM is our only hope for the survival of the 2T, especially by creating the KTM144.

Good point. Hopefully KTM is not the only hope for survival but I most definitely should have included them as well.

motometal · May 28, 2007

rmc_olderthandirt said:
Actually, a large portion of the world has already gone that way. When it comes to emissions, fuel economy, etc. Europe and Japan are way ahead of us.

Rod

....While China makes up for any positive efforts by the rest of us by dumping clouds of black smoke into the atmosphere so that you can buy poor quality, disposable products at Wal-Mart, and then clutter up OUR (not Chinas) landfill with them.

sorry, sorta off topic there...

motometal · May 28, 2007

back on the discussion of the direct injection, don't forget the gyro effect of the engine. This is one thing that the four stroke designers have been fighting, and many of you as riders have felt it but may not have noticed or understood. Greater rotating mass has larger gyroscopic force, which resists change in direction (turning the bike). I can't say for sure, but I suspect that no matter what, a 250cc two stroke will have less gyro force than a 450, or even 350cc four stroke. The four stroke needs a relatively larger flyweel mass to keep it going in between strokes, as it doesn't fire as often.

So my point is, from that respect, even if the 2T ended up weighing as much, there may be handling advantages.

I think we are going to see fuel injection systems, and their associated complications, on MX bikes, two or four stroke.

have you heard

Rotorranch

sixds

Dekester

keithcr250r

rmc_olderthandirt

76GMC1500

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lynch racing

kawicam250

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150rguy

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76GMC1500

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kawicam250

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