have you heard

[Bunya]

... Thanks to the media, sensationalism, and a general population who thinks their opinion matters on every subject despite having no backround or education in the subject, the scientific method is dead.

AMEN brother! As a consequence, the politicians then pass ill conceived laws based on the public's uninformed, knee jerk opinions. :coocoo:

 

[lynch racing]

Good point. Hopefully KTM is not the only hope for survival but I most definitely should have included them as well.

Don`t forget TM`s 144, GasGas is there too, Husqvarna,Yamaha will probably sneak out a 144 soon, some sighted over here (rockets :ohmy: ) and the punched out KX`s are not going away...Suzuki :( - very rare,Bye Bye soon......

 

[CRF_450GUY514]

Possibly the most ignorant thing said on this forum. If you take offense to that, great! Not everyone is a racer, not everyone needs to push their bike to it's limits and beyond. Most people are in this sport for FUN, who cares what they ride, as long as they ride. If we want everyone who doesn't have A-class skills and taking their riding with a heart-attack-serious-attitude to hang up their helmet, then the sport is done. If a 4 stroke works best for someone, then let them ride a 4 stroke! No one is a poser for not having 2 stroke experience.

[ /rant ]

O I couldn’t agree more with you, I am not lazy just because I ride a 450 I have road two strokes all my life big F’in deal I went with a bike that has more power handles better and is less tiring to ride “that does not make me lazy”. I don’t get it of course people will go with something that is “better newer faster” like wtf if I were to buy anything new like a car or a computer or ANYTHING im going to want the fastest BEST product available and im sorry to say but the 4 stroke is just that. I think that dude that said/implied that 4 stroke riders are lazy is just a tad pissed because them 450 just smoke his little chain saw engine bike.

As for four strokes being more complicated and harder to work on that’s not really true. You’re forgetting all modern two stroke bikes 125cc and up have a little thing called power valves. My crf450 I find to be just as easer to replace a piston in then to replace a piston and clean the power valves in a KX 250. Doing a piston replacement in a CRF is dummy proof.

O and one more thing I could call every two stroke rider a greedy ******* that doesn’t care about the environment but im not going to lower myself to those standards.

 

[2strokerfun]

I'll bet you're typing on a computer newer than an 8086, you greedy and lazy fast-computer guy.
Now, where's my 5 1/4" floppy? I need to put the other part of the program in for a minute........

 

[CRF_450GUY514]

I'll bet you're typing on a computer newer than an 8086, you greedy and lazy fast-computer guy.
Now, where's my 5 1/4" floppy? I need to put the other part of the program in for a minute........

Na I’m typing on a computer that has an Intel qx6700 4 gigs of ram and a NVIDIA 8800 GTX :nener:

 

[SteveinSpringHill]

As for four strokes being more complicated and harder to work on that’s not really true. You’re forgetting all modern two stroke bikes 125cc and up have a little thing called power valves. My crf450 I find to be just as easer to replace a piston in then to replace a piston and clean the power valves in a KX 250. Doing a piston replacement in a CRF is dummy proof.

I'll bet you earn top dollar as a mechanic at a dealership huh? :laugh:

Because that first sentence there about every mechanic in the country sure doesn't feel that way. And the labor times in the manual don't reflect that either. :coocoo:

 

[CRF_450GUY514]

I'll bet you earn top dollar as a mechanic at a dealership huh? :laugh:

Because that first sentence there about every mechanic in the country sure doesn't feel that way. And the labor times in the manual don't reflect that either. :coocoo:

Well I was just talking about a piston change with no valve work and personally I find it just as easy and about the same amount of time as doing a piston and power valve service to a KX 250/RM250/YZ250/CR250/SX250 I have done those all. There is nothing more complicated in doing a top end on a CRF450 then there is on a KX250, setting the timing is just a matter of matching dots what the hell is so hard about that.

Most mechanics at dealer ships don’t even take the power valves apart to clean them so that explains why they get them done quicker. I really don’t care what excuse a mechanic at a dealership has about charging more to do a top end on a CRF because I have owned them all and rebuilt them all and like I said I personally find a CRF just as easy as any 125/250cc two strokes to work on.

I also get about a hundred hours on my top end on my CRF, TRY DOING THAT WITH A TWO STROKE HAHAHAHA. :laugh:

 

[Matt Fisher]

I also get about a hundred hours on my top end on my CRF, TRY DOING THAT WITH A TWO STROKE HAHAHAHA. :laugh:

No problem. There are innumerable big bore 2-strokes with hundreds of hours on the original parts- all making more power than your CRF. HAHAHAHA yourself. :nener:

 

[CRF_450GUY514]

No problem. There are innumerable big bore 2-strokes with hundreds of hours on the original parts- all making more power than your CRF. HAHAHAHA yourself. :nener:

Rite :coocoo: A cr500 doesn’t count lol :nener:

 

[Convert]

Sure to be jumped on

Being really new to this forum I am sure I will have stones cast at me for this post but I am willing to take the hit. 2 stroke....4 stroke...who really cares; I got into this very enjoyable sport because it's a blast to get out there and ride...period. I don't race and I don't ever want to, my last bike was a RM250 and I loved it....my current bike is a CRF450R and well you guessed it, I love it. Are two strokes easier to work on? sure, less moving parts, not as many specs to follow. Are 4 strokes hard to work on? not in my opinion; no more difficult then a modern day vehicle motor. Yes they take more time to work on and do cost slightly more depending on the parts replaced but in all honesty I have not found it to be that big of a deal. That said I like to do my own work. Initially I was hesitant to purchase a 4 stroke because of all the hype, however after assisting my friend in a rebuild on his RMZ I can assure you it is in fact hype. Maintain your bike, car or house and it will last; neglect and you will pay the price. At the end of the day I like to get out and ride, nuff said.

 

[lynch racing]

Rite :coocoo: A cr500 doesn’t count lol :nener:

Don`t laugh- they are still racing and kicking 4t butts, Don`t forget the KX 500`s they may be ugly but holeshot kings.

EM Open Class European Championship:
Motorcycles CAT1,Group A1, 4stroke up to 650cc and 2stroke above 175cc up to 500cc.. :cool:

What would you ride? easy answer :)

 

[CRF_450GUY514]

Being really new to this forum I am sure I will have stones cast at me for this post but I am willing to take the hit. 2 stroke....4 stroke...who really cares; I got into this very enjoyable sport because it's a blast to get out there and ride...period. I don't race and I don't ever want to, my last bike was a RM250 and I loved it....my current bike is a CRF450R and well you guessed it, I love it. Are two strokes easier to work on? sure, less moving parts, not as many specs to follow. Are 4 strokes hard to work on? not in my opinion; no more difficult then a modern day vehicle motor. Yes they take more time to work on and do cost slightly more depending on the parts replaced but in all honesty I have not found it to be that big of a deal. That said I like to do my own work. Initially I was hesitant to purchase a 4 stroke because of all the hype, however after assisting my friend in a rebuild on his RMZ I can assure you it is in fact hype. Maintain your bike, car or house and it will last; neglect and you will pay the price. At the end of the day I like to get out and ride, nuff said.

I would have to agree with you I to don’t race anymore im now just in it purely for fun, I to have both a two stroke rm 250 and a 4 stroke crf450, I love riding on both bikes “I do prefer the crf” I’m not knocking two strokes. I grew up with them it’s just that the new 4 strokes I find are even more fun to ride, and I still say my CRF is just as easy to do a piston replacement on as it is to replace and completely clean the power valves in my RM 250. You say the CRF has more moving parts? Well really think about how many moving parts there are in the two stroke top end including power valves.

and I can count LESS parts to doing a top end in a CRF WITHOUT valve work and cam removal I'm talking just a piston change in the 4 stroke.

 

[76GMC1500]

I would have to agree with you I to don’t race anymore im now just in it purely for fun, I to have both a two stroke rm 250 and a 4 stroke crf450, I love riding on both bikes “I do prefer the crf” I’m not knocking two strokes. I grew up with them it’s just that the new 4 strokes I find are even more fun to ride, and I still say my CRF is just as easy to do a piston replacement on as it is to replace and completely clean the power valves in my RM 250. You say the CRF has more moving parts? Well really think about how many moving parts there are in the two stroke top end including power valves.

The problem with 4-stroke service isn't the number of parts involved or the complexity of the parts, it's the special tools required to do the service. Besides, how often do you really have to clean your powervalve? Ever since I started burning better oil, I don't need to do it at all. With Amsoil Interceptor, my powervalves come out cleaner than they go in. This is in the prone to carbon fouling late 80's Honda HPP system.


On to the rules, As much as I would like to see the 2-stroke be competitive again, I would not like to see a significant displacement change like a 350cc limit for 4-strokes. Neither would I like to see any major class restructuring. Both of these would require riders to purchase new bikes in order to run their respective classes. I feel a mandated restrictor plate could be used to effectively limit the horsepower and upper RPM limit of the engines. This would cut down on both engine wear and noise. The cost to the independent riders would be minimal and it could potentially save them money in the long run.

 

[motometal]

If you haven't learned it yet, you will find out, that the piston is not necessarilly the "main" part needing changed out in the four strokes. Valves and valve springs are in many cases "as", if not "more" important.

I don't look at powervalves the same way. If everything is operating smoothly and doesn't look gummed up, I don't always even take it apart. And when I do take it apart to clean, i'd much rather do routine cleaning on a system like that, than to spend big bucks replacing valvetrain parts, including trying to decide if the valve seats and/or head is shelled out and needing replaced. Additionally, I would say there is much greater possibility of a mistake upon reassembly, causing great expense. With a two stroke power valve system, most of the mistakes you could make, would cause the valve to not operate properly, which would be obvious right away, but no harm done. Mis timing a four stroke, or setting lash improperly can lead to serious expense, very quickly.

 

[CRF_450GUY514]

Ya you have a vary good point I was just talking about piston changes but it does get significantly more involved once you have to pop the valves out and re cut the seats. I know of a guy that installed exhaust cotters on the intake valves, the bike started up but not for long the piston struck the valve and it was new cylinder head time. However my CRF has bin the picture of durability, I went thru a few stock valves but then decided to go with the SST valves and have the seats professionally cut.

I sent my cylinder to Ron Hamp and had him install new ferrea titanium nitrate coated 1mm oversized valves and also had a three angle valve cut done. Now my valves NEVER need adjusting (I check them often) and I have almost 100 hours on it. So for a stock crf I would say yes it’s just as much maintenance as a two stroke but once you do what I did to them they are much more durable.

I will give props to the YZF’s they have a dam good stock valve set up.

 

[Matt Fisher]

Rite :coocoo: A cr500 doesn’t count lol :nener:

OH? Why wouldn't a CR500 count? :coocoo:

Well then, how about the KX500, KTM380, KTM500, or the mighty KTM550? :nener:

The fact is, a 10 year old big bore 2-stroke motor is lighter, simpler, easier to work on, more reliable, and makes more power than a new CRF450 motor.

The ONLY reason 4-stroke MX bike's even exist is because of a set of unfair displacement rules. Period.

 

[flyingfuzzball]

no its not

its cuz of the enviromentalists and how much polution a 2 stroke puts out

also the ease of 4 stroke power (though boring)

personally i like both. 4 strokes a fun cuz they have so much bottom end

but the 2 strokes are fun cuz of powerband. i rode my brother-in-law's cr500af (took like 3 hours of asking him) and they produce so much frikken power in and out of powerband.


i do believe that in a the next couple years (and i mean like 5-10 area) 2 strokes will become rarer and rarer. its emissions.

 

[syko]

it ain't over for the 2 strokes yet.
Here in europe they are unquestionably making a come back.

people are just done with the four bangers over here.

 

[CRF_450GUY514]

OH? Why wouldn't a CR500 count? :coocoo:

Well then, how about the KX500, KTM380, KTM500, or the mighty KTM550? :nener:

The fact is, a 10 year old big bore 2-stroke motor is lighter, simpler, easier to work on, more reliable, and makes more power than a new CRF450 motor.

The ONLY reason 4-stroke MX bike's even exist is because of a set of unfair displacement rules. Period.

Ah what about the simple fact that 4 strokes don’t burn oil and don’t pollute as much, maybe that’s the reason 4-stroke MX bike's exist. And the reason a CR500 wouldn’t count is because it’s not really a true motocross bike in the first place, I would love to see someone try and handle one of those on a supercross track and get the same lap times on it as a 450 4 stroke or 250 two stroke, there is simply to much power same with all the other big bore bikes you just named.

I also highly doubt a cr500, KTM 380, KX500 could go over a 100 hours of high RPM abuse "on there top ends" as the new 4 strokes go threw. I don’t care what you say a newer 4 stroke mx bike will last longer, I only had two stokes for 10 years I think I would know.

I don’t know why I bother I’m on a die hard two stroke forum, lol of course your to defend your two strokes no madder what I say, just Remember I am not biased I too own a two stroke. .

 

[CRF_450GUY514]

If you haven't learned it yet, you will find out, that the piston is not necessarilly the "main" part needing changed out in the four strokes. Valves and valve springs are in many cases "as", if not "more" important.

I have replaced quite a few valves in my day, finding a machine shop to cut the seats rite is a total pain in the ass. However once the seats are cut perfectly and high quality stainless steel titanium nitrate coated valves are used with the appropriate valve springs the 4 strokes simply don’t need maintenance of the valves for a long long time.

I don’t know why it is I have all these people telling me my two stroke is more durable then my 4 stroke when I’m working on my two stroke the most.

 

[Matt Fisher]

Ah what about the simple fact that 4 strokes don’t burn oil and don’t pollute as much, maybe that’s the reason 4-stroke MX bike's exist.

Nope, 4-stroke MX bikes don't pass emissions tests, same as 2-stroke MX bikes.

And the reason a CR500 wouldn’t count is because it’s not really a true motocross bike in the first place, I would love to see someone try and handle one of those on a supercross track and get the same lap times on it as a 450 4 stroke or 250 two stroke, there is simply to much power same with all the other big bore bikes you just named.

Oh please, it's not a true MX bike? That's just silly, what was it, a dual-sport? :coocoo: Not a SX bike- correct. But then again it wasn't designed to be one, there hasn't been a 500cc SX class since the early 70's. As for lap times- drop the 10 year old CR500 motor into a modern chassis, and the CRF450 gets left behind. Imagine what a modern 500cc pinger would perform like... :nod:

Not that any of this related to your original comment that I responded to-

I also get about a hundred hours on my top end on my CRF, TRY DOING THAT WITH A TWO STROKE HAHAHAHA.

I also highly doubt a cr500, KTM 380, KX500 could go over a 100 hours of high RPM abuse "on there top ends" as the new 4 strokes go threw. I don’t care what you say a newer 4 stroke mx bike will last longer, I only had two stokes for 10 years I think I would know.

You keep changing the (incorrect) original premise that 2-strokes won't go 100 hours. Yes they will.

As for the length of time at high rpm- none of the big pingers revved nearly as high as your CRF- they made more power at 7K than the thumpers do at 10K.

I don’t know why I bother I’m on a die hard two stroke forum, lol of course your to defend your two strokes no madder what I say, just Remember I am not biased I too own a two stroke. .

Both have their advantages and disadvantges, no doubt. Unfortunately, the biggest advantage the 4-stroke has for MX is the rulebook, and that's an advantage that's nearly impossible to overcome.

 

[CRF_450GUY514]

Yes a 4 stroke won’t pass an emission test however that doesn’t mean they pollute as much as a two stroke. You cant get around the fact that a two banger burns oil for its lubrication no madder how you look at it and a properly jetted 4 stroke mx bike “although it wont pass emissions” burns far cleaner.

Top end’s in 4 stroke MX bikes that have proper oil changes do last longer then two stroke top ends.

And yes a CR500 would be allot better if it was in a 02-07 cr frame, however that is not the case they have old outdated frames, and for good reason there to powerful to be a good MX/SX bike.

The displacement rule is fair, 4 stroke have a power stroke every 720 degrees of the crank shaft rotation two strokes have a power stroke every 360 degrees of the crank shaft rotation. The only reason a 4 stroke even makes more torque is because it retains all of its fuel/air mixture better “it’s not lost in scavenging like it is in a two stroke” if a two stroke could retain its fuel/air mixture like a 4 stroke does it would be twice as powerful per cc.

4 stroke MX bikes produce vary similar HP numbers, the 4 stroke does produce more torque but then again it weighs more and is more top heavy so really the only area the 4 stroke will be unfair on is long tracks, the two strokes have the advantage on the tight tracks.

 

[Matt Fisher]

Yes a 4 stroke won’t pass an emission test however that doesn’t mean they pollute as much as a two stroke. You cant get around the fact that a two banger burns oil for its lubrication no madder how you look at it and a properly jetted 4 stroke mx bike “although it wont pass emissions” burns far cleaner.

Irrelevant. That's like saying my son's farts don't smell as bad as mine. They both stink. Remember, the eco-nazi tests are a pass/fail, not a graded curve. Technology has already proven that 2-strokes can burn every bit as clean as a 4-stroke, but the mfg's won't spend the $ to do as long as the 4-strokes are given an unfair advantage (are you beginning to see a trend here yet)?

Top end’s in 4 stroke MX bikes that have proper oil changes do last longer then two stroke top ends.

Debatable, especially if the cc's and power are equal. However, I presume this means you concede your initial 100 hour statement?

And yes a CR500 would be allot better if it was in a 02-07 cr frame, however that is not the case they have old outdated frames, and for good reason there to powerful to be a good MX/SX bike.

Since there are CR500AF's available now, let's go ahead and include them in this little comparo, now shall we? :p

The displacement rule is fair, 4 stroke have a power stroke every 720 degrees of the crank shaft rotation two strokes have a power stroke every 360 degrees of the crank shaft rotation. The only reason a 4 stroke even makes more torque is because it retains all of its fuel/air mixture better “it’s not lost in scavenging like it is in a two stroke” if a two stroke could retain its fuel/air mixture like a 4 stroke does it would be twice as powerful per cc.

It's FAIR!?!?!?!?!? :bang: :bang: :bang: Are you running a fever or something; my gosh, if it was FAIR, there would still be lots of 2-strokes at the races.

No, a 4-stroke makes more torque because the comparison you're using is based on 125/250F or 250/450F. Usually a 4-stroke of equal cc's will have a broader powerband due to it's inherent ability to rev higher than a 2-stroke, but they don't make more torque, cc for cc.

4 stroke MX bikes produce vary similar HP numbers, the 4 stroke does produce more torque but then again it weighs more and is more top heavy so really the only area the 4 stroke will be unfair on is long tracks, the two strokes have the advantage on the tight tracks.

If this were true, then 2-strokes would be running amok on tight tracks- and they aren't. Because they have been given an unfair displacement advantage, the 4-strokes are more tractable coming out of slow corners (like those found on tight tracks).

 

[CRF_450GUY514]

Irrelevant. That's like saying my son's farts don't smell as bad as mine. They both stink. Remember, the eco-nazi tests are a pass/fail, not a graded curve. Technology has already proven that 2-strokes can burn every bit as clean as a 4-stroke, but the mfg's won't spend the $ to do as long as the 4-strokes are given an unfair advantage (are you beginning to see a trend here yet)?

If this were true, then 2-strokes would be running amok on tight tracks- and they aren't. Because they have been given an unfair displacement advantage, the 4-strokes are more tractable coming out of slow corners (like those found on tight tracks).

Please if you get a two stroke to burn as clean as a 4 stroke mx can run it would be so close to running dangerously lean. 4 Stokes are just better designs they get gobs of lubrication two strokes don’t. So yes 4 stokes ARE cleaner bikes THEY DON’T BURN OIL plain and simple you cant get around the fact that a two stroke burns oil.

Also soon EFI will be coming to a 4 stroke near you lol, I would really love to see a two stroke burn as clean as a EFI 4 stroke bike, and to top it all off the 4 stoke will burn cleaner yet still get gobs of lube. And please no more fart comparisons, if your fart stinks more then your sons then that means your fart is more concentrated with higher levels of methane and sulfur SO YES YOUR FART WOULD BE DIRTIER lol.

As for the displacement rule being unfair I beg to differ, there is a reason why no one runs 2 strokes anymore and its because the 4 stroke is less tiring to ride and your able to go faster on it longer. So stop hating on 4 strokes its not there fault there a better design, of course a 4 stroke will be a bit faster on allot of tracks that’s what you get with a better design. 4 strokes HP numbers are dam near tide I think my 450 stock is about 48 HP well the two stroke 250’s are close or at the 48 HP mark, so again it just comes down to which bike is the better design.

 

[Caseys500]

I have never ridden on a motorcross track and I have been riding bikes all my life...I would venture to say that 50-75% of people who ride bikes have never ridden on a track either. I have an 88 CR500 motor in a 97 CR250 Frame. You wouldn't believe the difference it made going from frame to frame, Night and Day! It is because of the power transfer to the ground advances...the CR remained virtually the same from 89-2001! When I start my bike at the dunes, everyone around stops what they are doing and stares... :yikes: I know I am on the baddest bike there...4 strokes dont stand a chance and that is comparing them to a frame that is 10 years older and a motor that is nearly 20 years older! Durability??? I just had the top end done on mine, first time the motor has been bored...$200 in a motor in 19 years is pretty good! What is happening to 2 strokes is a shame...Ridden and owned both and you can't beat the smile factor a 2 stroke gives ya. The problem is the migration of people...the people now live where the riding areas are or used to be, they don't like the noise :yell: people complain and motorcyclists take a hit and gotta give somewhere...Since 2 strokes are less of a trail bike anyways where do they start to give, the louder, polluting, more powerful per size bikes. Where there is less people (I live in Idaho), there are less rules and laws but it is starting to get worse. The dunes will always be a place for the 2 strokes. The trickle down effect of the tamer four stroke has occurred. Instead of little kids learning on a KX65 (how it used to be), now they are learning on a quieter, less annoying, tamer (so the kid doesnt get hurt) PW50, and when they upgrade they are gonna want something they are comfortable on, a bigger 4 stroke. This isn't a "which is better debate" :blah: ...it's an experience the entire motorcycle industry is facing, the downfall of the 2 stroke... :|