Inner/Outer Fork Tube Play

Solid State · Mar 9, 2010

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Assume a brand new fully assembled KYB fork mounted on the triple clamps. No front wheel, no brake, nothing attached. If you grab the outer fork tube at its lowest point and then grab the inner tube at the bottom of the lug and then wiggle the lower tube front to back and side to side, should there be any movement/play? If so how much should the lug deviate in its movement? Wondering if it should be zero play (tight) like the wrist pin in a piston or tight like the non-vertical movement of the crank in its bearings.

When I perform this test, I get a couple milimeters side to side play measured at the bottom of the lug on the left tube and maybe one and a half on the right lug. The lugs are not loose on the inner tube, its the whole inner tune assembly has side to side play. The same play occurs if you compress the lower tubes an inch, they will still rock by the same amount.

The bike is a 2009 CRF450R and I just got the suspension back from being revalved. I did not do this test on the fork before I sent them out. The outer tubes were replaced with new coated tubes during the revalve.

I also noticed that the outer tube is not machined identical to the original 2009 CRF450R. The outer surface is completely smooth top to bottom where the original was only smooth at the clamp locations. Everywhere else the original outer tubes had raised machine/tooling marks. What do you suppose these tubes are off of? Never saw totally smooth outer tubes. They do not get re-machined smooth when being coated.

Thanks in advance.

whenfoxforks-ruled · Mar 9, 2010

I have some showas laying around, no movement. What did the tuner say? It sure sounds fishy, no way I would go any farther with assembly. Having your front forks come apart whilst riding is not fun! And the price all that work cost? Not good. Vintage Bob

ellandoh · Mar 9, 2010

i would return them and ask whats going on. he either put your bike back together with worn parts, the outer tubes are not new, or he made a boo boo. either way he would be taking them apart again, or get a cancelled check

SpDyKen · Mar 9, 2010

I see a potential problem here: http://www.dirtrider.net/forums3/showthread.php?p=1385425#post1385425

"However, I supplied new outer tubes and shock body from Japan if you know what I mean." :think: :(

Could very well be a parts problem. Tough to resolve when you supply your own parts.

ellandoh · Mar 9, 2010

SpDyKen
Lifetime Sponsor of a mind like a steel trap

SpDyKen · Mar 9, 2010

ellandoh said:
SpDyKen
Lifetime Sponsor of a mind like a steel trap

Rusty, and banned in most states, right? :nod: ;)

whenfoxforks-ruled · Mar 10, 2010

Nice Ken, my rusty brain did have a dimly lit light pop up about the trick forks and Solid State. The last time someone danced around who did it, it was a site sponsor issue. Not this time. Vintage Bob

Solid State · Mar 10, 2010

Resolved

Thanks Jeremy for the phone chat. I guess the folks around here have gotten pretty conspiratorial!! For those fork truthers out there: the play in the brand new KYB assembly “is shocking, actually” and “they would not work without it”. It’s funny that Jeremy and I use the same parts supplier in this case as well. They come fully polished and coated. SpDyKen – nice detective work but I’m proud of my posts, hope they are helpful, and am very aware of the ‘search’ function. Nothing to hide.

Jeremy is extremely knowledgeable.

Thanks again.

whenfoxforks-ruled · Mar 10, 2010

Solid State, that is out frigging standing! Surely you understand that a chage like this, is pretty hard to swallow. Ever had a fork come apart on you, while leading a pack of other racers? I have, they were loose, got looser and separated, loosing 1 snapped the other. You did post about a deal from :
In the end, I read a thread on suspension companies and someone said to go with one that works with the pros alot as they are constantly refining in real time and know what they are doing. I saw major improvements with the Factory Connection team bikes in SX, downloaded their catalogs/information, called and discussed pricing/technology and went large on both ends. Very similar solution to your new offering. However, I supplied new outer tubes and shock body from Japan if you know what I mean. Agreed to be the first retail customer of some technology straight out of KW's shock.
MXTech has a new patent pending technology eliminating bottoming out. But Jeremy Wilke would have a time let me tell you, convincing me, play, in the inner tube rocking is a good thing. I can see that together it may feel solid, but the wear factor? Vintage Bob

Solid State · Mar 10, 2010

Bob,

I see where your passion is as a fork separation sounds quite nasty! However, I assure you the information I gave was 100% accurate and I believe Jeremy. In fact, he answered the question immediately without a slight amount of hesitation.

Additionally, I have researched it and found that it is quite normal and there is actually a spec for how far the movement can be and why. Mine is well within spec.

You don't have to re-post my own posts from other threads (I know what I wrote and the posts are not secret) and please stop calling me Shirley!!

Also, I did not go into detail on the vendor because for some reason it is a secret to the various tuners so I repected their protocol.

Thanks

SpDyKen · Mar 11, 2010

Solid State, glad to hear that you are working with Jeremy. You'll get good service & information from him. I have no ax to grind, just trying to help you resolve your issue. I don't think the KYB vendor is any secret, either. If you have any problems, a reputable company will make them right.

(Sorry, but I didn't "know what you mean." ;) )

Good luck resolving your issues. I hope all works out well. :cool:

whenfoxforks-ruled · Mar 11, 2010

I re-posted it, because it made a light flash? If Kayaba's are designed like this, I will keep my non-rocking Showas, thank you. And send them to MXTech! And the last time I brought up the nifty looking treatment to change colors, a benefit for Kdub, not me. It saved me mucho dinero! How about titanium springs? You do have an idea how much weight is to be saved? Wilkey does, and here again, "Robert, you will never see the benefit of spending near 1000 dollars, and a really long wait time". Kdub may, not me. But the new patent pending valving, bring them on! Factory Connection is 1 of the very few big name suspension companies that I have never used before. You better have some really good reports coming! So far, not good. IMO. Unless you got a deal, you spent over a grand? Or you are like the 10th~20th fastest guy on the planet? Vintage Bob

Solid State · Mar 11, 2010

Wow Bob. I'm sorry so far you believe that 'so far it is not good' - NOT! Hey, I'm old, slow and don't rank myself against anyone. I will be racing the 50+ in my district and 40+ in other AMA santioned events. Mid pack at best.

I wasn't looking for justification or acceptance. I just wanted to help Jeremy with his request on the other post (which I know I did) and ask an honest technical question in this one - like I've been doing on this board for nearly the last 10 years. It sure seems that some folks' responses were probing for a gotcha moment or something!

No problems though. Its all good. I will post a ride report when the time comes. You really should see these things though - I'm not worthy but feel very lucky to have gone this way. I'm hoping the bike just grabs traction now like mad and is stable at speed. At this point, they are probably just over-priced works of art in some people's minds.

whenfoxforks-ruled · Mar 11, 2010

Oh I loved the look also. And was especially curious about keeping the back shock cooler. Less friction? Nope, change the oil more. The heat does not come from the shaft/seal connection. At best, it lessens stiction in the forks. But 8 out of 10 do not know how to align their front end to begin with. When the KX's came stock with them, they were beautiful! And anything to ease the shock in my back, bring it on. And if I had a butt wad of money, and begged Wilkey, he would color my stuff and slap the titanium springs in too. Sure curious about this kayaba free play still, next trip to Wilkey's! I could have asked AJ about this also. Way too busy drooling on AF bikes and chunks of aluminum! I will remember next time! Vintage Bob

Solid State · Mar 12, 2010

Bob,

The coating I was refering to is on the OUTER tubes and shock body - not the inner tubes and shock shaft (those are DLC and yes many folks offer those - Jeremy as well). Before you go off and likely comment that coatings on the outside of the outer tubes do nothing (besides waste your money and look awesome) please know that the coating is grown on the outside and INSIDE of both the shock body and fork tubes where constant contact with the bushings take place. Its the combination of the DLC and the Kashima coatings (not standard hard anodize) that provide the performance gain. Will I feel a difference? - I'll let you know. If I could ever figure out how to post a picture on this site I'm sure you would enjoy the view.

I must say that I was impressed with Jeremy. He was professional, knowledgeable and willing to assist. He spoke, I listened and I'm sure he'll get my future business one way or the other. I own five bikes right now and this is the first suspension I ever modified.

Cheers.

whenfoxforks-ruled · Mar 12, 2010

I hope you take this as just concern, alright? I ran down AJ, and my son got a set of 00 kx250 forks from MX Tech today. At Service, mounted on a 2010 KX500AF, AJ's number 1 guy tried rocking the lower legs, wheel was off, he got less than a quarter inch, with a lot of effort. They came to the conclusion something may be up with the bushings. The 00 set from MX Tech rocks less than the brand new ones, half as much. All kyb's. Vintage Bob

Solid State · Mar 15, 2010

If it was near 0.25" perhaps that would be a concern. It is certainly above the 5-7mm between legs that seems to be a guide.

whenfoxforks-ruled · Mar 15, 2010

8mm is 5/16", so you are saying the kayaba's deflect 5-7mm is good? Yours move 1 mm and 1.5 mm. And me being inches and feets anal, this statement was taken out of context by yours truly, "and maybe one and a half on the right lug." My bad. A quarter?, I was looking at a half! Big worries! Thats straight? My intake on some of the latest special treatments, the ones inside you do not see, they run more clearances. Engines or suspension. So you are the "test" rider? I highly doubt they will feel loose. How long they last is my first question. Vintage Bob

Solid State · Mar 16, 2010

Bob,

Per my post, I get 1.5mm wiggle on the right leg and 2.0mm on the left (unscientific measurements). The 'spec' that I received was 5-7mm 'between' both forks. That allows for 2.5 to 3.5mm wiggle for 'each' tube if my math is correct. Your post mentioned 0.25'' of play (I'm assuming on a single leg). Let us know what you find out.

Good luck.

whenfoxforks-ruled · Mar 16, 2010

Noooo, Lets try this new? Hi Solid State. You have the Kayabas done up with a new special treatment to the uppers? I believe it is the same as the engines with the treated pistons, you run it a little looser? My Showas rock together 0, I seen a guy at Service check a new set of Kayabas on a new KX, 0. Like me, he figured shot bushings. But, he did not know about Factory Connections' latest work. Keep us posted on the results? Vintage Bob

Solid State · Mar 29, 2010

Ride Report

Wanted to get back to you on performance. Rode the District 7 opener at Blue Diamond yesterday. It was cold, windy, wet, muddy and rutted horribly. The track is very technical with a combination of black soft soil and clay with again huge ruts. The suspension mods pretty much completely changed the character of the bike. It is extremely stable at speed with zero head shake. The link and shock mods took all the high speed instability away but at the usual cost of steering sharpness. I presently have the tubes at 0" above clamps so have room to play.

The forks were really good. Very plush and superb bottoming resistance. Came up short on a double in the first practice and feared the worst but no clank and no jolt. Later checked the the tube travel and they went the full distance - must have bottomed but did not feel it. The braking bumps were the worst I ever saw and the bike ate it up. Like sitting on a rocking horse. I'm very pleased. Much, much better than stock. The bike is balanced and powerful. I can recommend getting suspension mod'ed especially on the FI Honda's.

As far as inner/outer tube play, once the wheel is mounted they are rigid as one unit. No detection of play in any direction with or without the brake applied. I understand now why Jeremy said that the play I described was normal. If there was zero play, they would bind quickly.

Regards.

Inner/Outer Fork Tube Play

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