Hi guys and girls, ive been a yamaha and honda man for many years, currenyly riding wr 426, fantastic bike but thinking about changing to ktm 450 exc, any thoughts or riders. all 400 tests seem good just low on power. wouldnt want to go any less on power than wr, many thanks Kiwi
ktm 450 or wr 450
- Thread starter prosport
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B
biglou
Check out the "Which Bike" forum. There was a thread in there on this exact topic. It may be on page 2 or 3 by now, but it's in there somewhere!
jeb
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- Jul 21, 1999
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The 426's brutal brand of power delivery won't be matched by the KTM, or CRF450, for that matter. KTM and Honda decided progressive, friendly power is the way to go and I personally agree with them. The KTM 450SX may be a lot more of a brute but no one's seen on yet that I know of so it remains a question mark. That motor is a lot different (bore, stroke, etc) than my 03 450EXC's engine.
Good luck with your decision.
Good luck with your decision.
tigerowner
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- Mar 3, 2002
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wait til the tests are out. Noone can tell you what to do since we haven't seen a WR yet.
I say, if you are going to get mass produced, you might as well go for it and buy Japanese! I don't think there is any doubt if your looking for reliability, japanese is the way to go.
What is KTM's selling point anyway? I actually have no idea. There RFS line is basically a massed produced, stripped of all its art, Husaberg.
Again, if you want massed produced. The Japanese do it better.
What is KTM's selling point anyway? I actually have no idea. There RFS line is basically a massed produced, stripped of all its art, Husaberg.
Again, if you want massed produced. The Japanese do it better.
jeb
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- Jul 21, 1999
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Wow. What a balanced, objective opinion that was. Thanks for sharing.
You say you have no idea about KTM's selling points yet you run them into the ground. Great logic.
And please backup your statement about reliability without "any doubt" being in the Japanese bikes favor.
You say you have no idea about KTM's selling points yet you run them into the ground. Great logic.
And please backup your statement about reliability without "any doubt" being in the Japanese bikes favor.
motomickey
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- May 9, 2002
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I'm with Jeb on that one. Just ask the Honda guys about their mass produced airboxes and their reliability. Or their oil level issues....
As far as a KTM being a stripped Husaberg-I have had recent bikes by both companies and that is not at all true. To say KTMs are refined husabergs, with KTM touches wouldn't even be correct. They do share some engineering and some parts, but they are very different.
As far as mass produced, KTM sold more offroad/mx bikes last year than one of the "mass" produced Japanese companies, and was within 200 units of one of the others.
Before you bash a bike, maybe you should try it??
As far as a KTM being a stripped Husaberg-I have had recent bikes by both companies and that is not at all true. To say KTMs are refined husabergs, with KTM touches wouldn't even be correct. They do share some engineering and some parts, but they are very different.
As far as mass produced, KTM sold more offroad/mx bikes last year than one of the "mass" produced Japanese companies, and was within 200 units of one of the others.
Before you bash a bike, maybe you should try it??
CR Swade
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- Jan 18, 2001
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Hey Jeb, how's it goin'? I am currently bouncing around between a CRF (which I like alot), a KTM 200EXC or a 450 EXC. The 200 is basically out-even though I love that bike. I really want a 4 stroke. Question: the YZ is a handful in the woods, the CRF I do good w/, is the 450 EXC more free revving than the 400 was? I like a little quicker power than the 400 gave, being a two-stroke guy.
BTW, looking forward the WUDI ride again.
Wade
BTW, looking forward the WUDI ride again.
Wade
I would love to reply in full but that would require more paragraphs than I have at my beck right now. But I would like to make a point or two more clear.
1. I think KTMs are fine machines in their own right. But what is up with the unreal demand? They are less reliable than japanese (sorry I have no data, this is merely intuition). And less exotic than the other euro-bikes. This is what I meant by the phrase "what is their selling point?"
2. I stand by the claim that the RFS line is merely a "de-tuned" Husaberg for "general consumption." But that aint so bad. If they must copy, might as well copy the best. It is a timed honored tradition in the world of motor sports. Even the engineers who created the CRF Had a Berg on their shop floor. To be more specific, it was the Lineaweaver tuned/BBR Husaberg 501.
3. Motomickey asks... "before you bash, why not try it?" Maybe I was a little harsh on KTM in my first post, and I apologise to those who have spent their money on them. I suppose I am a little fed up with the attitude that KTMs are so superior when I feel otherwise.
1. I think KTMs are fine machines in their own right. But what is up with the unreal demand? They are less reliable than japanese (sorry I have no data, this is merely intuition). And less exotic than the other euro-bikes. This is what I meant by the phrase "what is their selling point?"
2. I stand by the claim that the RFS line is merely a "de-tuned" Husaberg for "general consumption." But that aint so bad. If they must copy, might as well copy the best. It is a timed honored tradition in the world of motor sports. Even the engineers who created the CRF Had a Berg on their shop floor. To be more specific, it was the Lineaweaver tuned/BBR Husaberg 501.
3. Motomickey asks... "before you bash, why not try it?" Maybe I was a little harsh on KTM in my first post, and I apologise to those who have spent their money on them. I suppose I am a little fed up with the attitude that KTMs are so superior when I feel otherwise.
knobbiethrower
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- Apr 21, 2000
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It really all boils down to the rider.Support your local dealer , invest in your choice of brand with your choice of performance hop-ups and enjoy the sport!I know of plenty of experienced and not so experienced riders that could ride any bike and roost! Every Manufacturer has their assembly line glitches and if they choose to use a proven design as a baseline why not? Find the market and prosper without making enemies along the way, they all want you coming back for more! ;)
jeb
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- Jul 21, 1999
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Your INTUITION tells you that KTM's are less reliable than Japanese bikes? Great, now we all know intuitively were you're coming from. I guess I am clearer on at least one point.
Sorry that you are for whatever reason frustrated by the "unreal demand" for KTM's. Maybe there's a good reason for that, huh? I sure think so.
As far as not being as exotic as some of the other Euro brands, that's a big selling point to me. I want a bike I can get parts and support for easily. Exotic = headaches to me.
Sorry, I guess I'm being somewhat harsh. But for you to come over here to the KTM forum and bash them without knowing much, if anything, about them just rubs me the wrong way.
jeb
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- Jul 21, 1999
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Hi Wade,
You can't go wrong with either choice, IMO. The biggest plus for the KTM is the happy button (a huge plus in my book), lights and more woods oriented suspension out of the box. However, the CRF is an easy starting bike that can certainly be valved for woods riding. I've ridden them back to back and I like the Honda just fine. Not enough to switch, though. :) Power is very similar once you put the right jets in the KTM (all the 4 stroke MXC/EXC's come with the ultra lean G jetting this year).
The 450E is no quicker revving down low than the 400E was, IMO. About the same with maybe a bit more torque. It's only been stroked since last year so that makes sense. What I like to call an enduro powerband, much like my 99 250EXC had.
WUDI V will probably be centered around the first week in March this year, BTW.
380EXCman
Sponsoring Member
- Sep 15, 1999
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John, Your way off base............
Below is cut and pasted from BBR's website. www.bbrmotorsports.com/Bikes/Bike12/Bike12.htm
BBR Husaberg 501
This may have been the wildest bike BBR ever built.
At 230 lbs. and 50+ hp., this bike is unbelievable!
After blowing up every single engine part twice, and nearly
a dozen ignitions, we jokingly renamed it "The Hindenburg."
For the sake of all those CRF450 riders out there I hope Honda didnt use this bike as there model to design the CRF after!
There is no doubt that KTM has used Husaberg or for that matter Husky as the starting point for there bike. You can just look at the motor and see some similarities. Husaberg does build a light, fast 4-stroke. But thats it. Up until KTM aquired them they looked old outdated and junky. You could park a 78 Suzuki next to a 99 Berg and the average guy off the street could never tell you which was the newer one. KTM's are Husabergs with about 5 years of improvements on them. If you look at my signature you will see that I currently own a 2001 Husaberg FC550 and an 2002 KTM 380SX. I can speak from experience and tell you that the KTM is a much better bike whether it be for race or pleasure. They are built with better parts, are much much more refined and the fit and finish is second to none.
I will tell you though if all I did was moto I would keep the Berg. There is NOTHING on the track anywhere that will beat it to the first turn and when you suck like I do thats the whole race. Once I round that first turn Im just a road block. As for the demand of KTM's I could go on for an hour about how much better they are (from magnetic drain plugs to hydraulic clutchs) and the $ for $ comparisons witht the jap guys but this thing has already gotten off topic enough.
As for the WR450 vs. 450EXC thing. I think you have to wait until the WR is out and being tested. I know one thing for sure. In order for the WR to compete it will have to be detuned. And then it will be loud and obnoxious. I just dont understand why the jap guys cant build a better exhaust system. Like KTM.
Below is cut and pasted from BBR's website. www.bbrmotorsports.com/Bikes/Bike12/Bike12.htm
BBR Husaberg 501
This may have been the wildest bike BBR ever built.
At 230 lbs. and 50+ hp., this bike is unbelievable!
After blowing up every single engine part twice, and nearly
a dozen ignitions, we jokingly renamed it "The Hindenburg."
For the sake of all those CRF450 riders out there I hope Honda didnt use this bike as there model to design the CRF after!
There is no doubt that KTM has used Husaberg or for that matter Husky as the starting point for there bike. You can just look at the motor and see some similarities. Husaberg does build a light, fast 4-stroke. But thats it. Up until KTM aquired them they looked old outdated and junky. You could park a 78 Suzuki next to a 99 Berg and the average guy off the street could never tell you which was the newer one. KTM's are Husabergs with about 5 years of improvements on them. If you look at my signature you will see that I currently own a 2001 Husaberg FC550 and an 2002 KTM 380SX. I can speak from experience and tell you that the KTM is a much better bike whether it be for race or pleasure. They are built with better parts, are much much more refined and the fit and finish is second to none.
I will tell you though if all I did was moto I would keep the Berg. There is NOTHING on the track anywhere that will beat it to the first turn and when you suck like I do thats the whole race. Once I round that first turn Im just a road block. As for the demand of KTM's I could go on for an hour about how much better they are (from magnetic drain plugs to hydraulic clutchs) and the $ for $ comparisons witht the jap guys but this thing has already gotten off topic enough.
As for the WR450 vs. 450EXC thing. I think you have to wait until the WR is out and being tested. I know one thing for sure. In order for the WR to compete it will have to be detuned. And then it will be loud and obnoxious. I just dont understand why the jap guys cant build a better exhaust system. Like KTM.
Ok jeb, so what tells you that KTMs are as reliable, or more so than japanese bikes? Are you privvy to some analysis that shows over time KTMs dependability is second to none? Was that a JD Power study???
I would think it is merely your INTUITION!
And when I look to the top of the page I see "KTM/EURO Bikes." Maybe you should find a KTM specific site and you wont have to read any crap by people who didn't choose KTM.
Frankly I am suprised that many of you are unaware that KTMs motor is based on the Berg. Some of you have refered to the motor as "KTM refined", while I have called it a "de-tuning", thats fine... but whatever you call it, it cetainly is milder.
I wouldnt call it more reliable either. Husaberg have been known and are expected to race for two full seasons w/out a rebuild. Anyone who claims otherwise will need pretty strong statistics to back it up!
I have to strongly disagree with Camexc380 that Bergs were dated before KTM held interest in them. Do you not remember the 90's? I beleive it was Husaberg winning championships, among others, while the KTM four stroke line languished. It was not until they based their own machines on the Berg that KTM became a viable player in the four stroke realm.
IMHO, KTM has produced fine motorcycles for years. In particular their two stroke line has a storied history. But that doesn't change anything now does it?
I would think it is merely your INTUITION!
And when I look to the top of the page I see "KTM/EURO Bikes." Maybe you should find a KTM specific site and you wont have to read any crap by people who didn't choose KTM.
Frankly I am suprised that many of you are unaware that KTMs motor is based on the Berg. Some of you have refered to the motor as "KTM refined", while I have called it a "de-tuning", thats fine... but whatever you call it, it cetainly is milder.
I wouldnt call it more reliable either. Husaberg have been known and are expected to race for two full seasons w/out a rebuild. Anyone who claims otherwise will need pretty strong statistics to back it up!
I have to strongly disagree with Camexc380 that Bergs were dated before KTM held interest in them. Do you not remember the 90's? I beleive it was Husaberg winning championships, among others, while the KTM four stroke line languished. It was not until they based their own machines on the Berg that KTM became a viable player in the four stroke realm.
IMHO, KTM has produced fine motorcycles for years. In particular their two stroke line has a storied history. But that doesn't change anything now does it?
380EXCman
Sponsoring Member
- Sep 15, 1999
- 721
- 1
And the Berg is based on the Husqvarna. Just like VOR and Vertematti. I believe these are all bikes that use "Fallon" (spelling) type motors.
And they were arcaic looking and cobby bikes. They used ignitions that lasted a "few" rides. And carburators that have been around since the Korean war. They still use sketchy ignitions and have crappy carburators. I will be the first to tell people that the Bergs are cool bikes. Heck I own a bike that only about 250 were built! They really seem to stand behind them but they still are not for every one and are not on the same level as KTM in the reliability and quality department.....
John, I think you need to buy a berg. I know where you can get a really really clean HUSABERG . :)
- Thread starter
- #16
John, you must be a dealer of bergs, that would make sence of your comments, check history of world titles held by bergs,(grinades we call them in nz) you wont hve to read long, also how many bike of the year awards have they won, that would make even shorter reading, take of you one eyed glasses mate, onnce you have owned a jap bike or ktm you will discover true value for money motorcycling. Good luck with the berg dearlership, your going to need it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Kiwi
beer_stud_76
Mod Ban
- Aug 30, 2002
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john -
i don't mean to heap on, but here goes. . .when you say
you are making an invalid argument. see, you cannot assert something, then when your assertion is counter asserted, turn around and say that the counter assertion is false based on the fact that it is assertion. so unless you are "privvy to some analysis" that shows that jap bikes are more reliable, your argument, based on your "intuition," is baseless.
also, no one here is giving you any crap for not chosing a KTM. countering a plainly baseless assertion doesn't constitute "giving crap" nor does it have anything to do with "not chosing a KTM." if a KTM owner posted what you posted, he/she too would have gotten the same "crap."
also, what cave are you living in? from all the anectdotal evidense that i've seen KTM gives up nothing to the japs in terms of reliability.
but what do i know?
jeremiah
i don't mean to heap on, but here goes. . .when you say
you are making an invalid argument. see, you cannot assert something, then when your assertion is counter asserted, turn around and say that the counter assertion is false based on the fact that it is assertion. so unless you are "privvy to some analysis" that shows that jap bikes are more reliable, your argument, based on your "intuition," is baseless.
also, no one here is giving you any crap for not chosing a KTM. countering a plainly baseless assertion doesn't constitute "giving crap" nor does it have anything to do with "not chosing a KTM." if a KTM owner posted what you posted, he/she too would have gotten the same "crap."
also, what cave are you living in? from all the anectdotal evidense that i've seen KTM gives up nothing to the japs in terms of reliability.
but what do i know?
jeremiah
although this post is in another forum and I have posted my opinion there (What bike should I get), gotta respond to the reliability thing. Not sure if you are joking or not John but I have noticed that many of those who began riding on Jap bikes in the 80's, 90's or before seem to have this bias. I did before buying my first pumpkin two years ago. I am on my second, a RFS, and have had no problems. In fact my personal experience with KTM has led me to believe that overall they are a more reliable machine because of the better parts that are put on them from the factory. No problems with either my '01 200 exc, please read bullet proof or my '02 400 MXC, both are tremendous machines. As for me after riding japanese bikes from 1974 to fall of 2000 I have finally seen the light and unless something very significant happens to the pumpkins in terms of quality I will continue to be a loyal customer. The trend with KTM's that I see is a refinement year after year based on customer comments, I see a better machine every year. Intuition (great word) tells me that the japanese machines don't get a lot better every year, just throw new graphics at them and send them out! As for the question in this post, see my post in the What bike should I buy forum, cliff's notes version; get the KTM, you won't be sorry prosport. Yes Yamaha has attempted to copy the magic button this year but it will have its faults, probably won't work all the time and you still don't have a KTM, intuition again.
beer_stud_76
Mod Ban
- Aug 30, 2002
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oh yeah, i almost forgot: all things being equal, get the KTM.
Owning an XR400 and a 400exc I can absolutely state the Honda is MUCH more reliable than the KTM especially if you crash and abuse it a lot. 800 miles at Taylor Park,Co. with no oil changes, flung down multiple hills, ridden in snow and pouring down rain the bike didn't even sneeze. The bike even ended up underwater in one of the creeks. Pulled it out, removed the plug, held it upside down to get the water out and the bike ran perfectly afterwards. The KTM is a lot more fun to ride but bolts and spokes loosening up after every ride, overheating in the tight technical stuff, poorly designed chain guides and other minor issues does seem to detract a little from the over all enjoyment.
Would I would buy a KTM again? The light weight, electric start and smooth power delivery is excellent but I suspect that the new offerings coming from Japan Inc. will make my next bike purchase a difficult choice.
Would I would buy a KTM again? The light weight, electric start and smooth power delivery is excellent but I suspect that the new offerings coming from Japan Inc. will make my next bike purchase a difficult choice.
beer_stud_76
Mod Ban
- Aug 30, 2002
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Ud Luz -
comparing ANY bike to an XR in terms of reliabilty isn't fair. also, the XR's nuke-proof reliability certianly doesn't transfer to other jap bikes. comparing modern design 4&2 stroke MX and enduro/trail bikes, the japs have nothing over KTM for reliability.
jeremiah
comparing ANY bike to an XR in terms of reliabilty isn't fair. also, the XR's nuke-proof reliability certianly doesn't transfer to other jap bikes. comparing modern design 4&2 stroke MX and enduro/trail bikes, the japs have nothing over KTM for reliability.
jeremiah
jeb
Member
- Jul 21, 1999
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Thanks Jeremiah, well said except that I don't think I was making an assertion. I understand your very good point, though.
John,
I never said KTM's were more reliable than anything else. I've been buying dirtbikes since '79 and I think ALL of the current offerings from the major companies are wonderfully reliable and trouble free. Some problems crop up in some brands for a particular bike that seems to be a phenomena that strikes all brands from time to time.
Japanese bikes, on the average, last 47% longer than KTMs.
KTMs require 39% more maintenance than Japanese bikes.
The value/cost ratio a KTM is 9% lower than Japanese bikes.
97% of all statistics are made up...
I've never ridden an '03 450 EXC and '03 WR450s are not yet available... but my intuition tells me you should buy the KTM, the photos in the magazines clearly indiacte higher speeds :thumb: !
KTMs require 39% more maintenance than Japanese bikes.
The value/cost ratio a KTM is 9% lower than Japanese bikes.
97% of all statistics are made up...
I've never ridden an '03 450 EXC and '03 WR450s are not yet available... but my intuition tells me you should buy the KTM, the photos in the magazines clearly indiacte higher speeds :thumb: !
A friend bought a CRF450. On the first ride out the front wheel collapsed.
This has not happened on either of my two KTM's despite the reputation for having slack spokes.
Another friend races the CRF450. He has just torn the engine down to have the correct gearing fitted because the bike comes with a too long 1st gear and high top gearing.
Both my KTM's have had perfect gearing on delivery.
What I'm trying to say is buy KTM.
This has not happened on either of my two KTM's despite the reputation for having slack spokes.
Another friend races the CRF450. He has just torn the engine down to have the correct gearing fitted because the bike comes with a too long 1st gear and high top gearing.
Both my KTM's have had perfect gearing on delivery.
What I'm trying to say is buy KTM.
